Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Where are the words "Trinity", "incarnation", and "consubstantal" in the Bible? Shall we jettison those truths as well merely because the specific words aren't found in Scripture?
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Does God have a Mother?
- Thread starter Eliyahu
- Start date
If you had proof then I wouldn't deny what you said, but you are lacking proof.
There is nothing false in my accusation. Nestorius split the person of Christ into two people. Yes there is a rule, scripture is quite clear that there is only one person of Christ not two. Dividing the two natures creates two persons which is totally against the teaching of scripture.
You are trying to set up an either/or with Hebrew 7 when it is a both/and. Both a lack of ancestry and possesion of ancestry can be attributed to Jesus.
A term does not have to come from scripture when it is descriptive of a scriptural truth. Jesus is full God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
There is nothing false in my accusation. Nestorius split the person of Christ into two people. Yes there is a rule, scripture is quite clear that there is only one person of Christ not two. Dividing the two natures creates two persons which is totally against the teaching of scripture.
You are trying to set up an either/or with Hebrew 7 when it is a both/and. Both a lack of ancestry and possesion of ancestry can be attributed to Jesus.
A term does not have to come from scripture when it is descriptive of a scriptural truth. Jesus is full God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
Chemnitz is correct. This issue was settled nearly 1600 years ago by the Church and I'm surprised that some here are seeking to call it into question with the revival of a very old heresy.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Exactly.
"Actually, the theological purpose was to protect the UNITY of Christ (as well as His deity), politics notwithstanding.
There is one personal subject in Christ, not two. "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesus was tragedy not a theological answer. This church was corrupt. The leaders were appointed and answered to the emperor. To use a title that was probably popular with the pagan Artemis worshipers and then call a Christian in good standing on the carpet because he wont use it, and then to force him into a debate over the logic and then excommunicate him over his argument in about a mysterious event, is a travesty.
And as I said before, the only reason you guys can keep you logic together is to agree to limit the term mother and God, neither of which folks do naturally when they engage the debate. They begin to argue based on the natural definition of mother and God and then find out the rug is pulled half way into the conversation by being told the word mother is being limited in scope for the purposes of justifying the title.
I give Ephesus NO authority.
There is one personal subject in Christ, not two. "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesus was tragedy not a theological answer. This church was corrupt. The leaders were appointed and answered to the emperor. To use a title that was probably popular with the pagan Artemis worshipers and then call a Christian in good standing on the carpet because he wont use it, and then to force him into a debate over the logic and then excommunicate him over his argument in about a mysterious event, is a travesty.
And as I said before, the only reason you guys can keep you logic together is to agree to limit the term mother and God, neither of which folks do naturally when they engage the debate. They begin to argue based on the natural definition of mother and God and then find out the rug is pulled half way into the conversation by being told the word mother is being limited in scope for the purposes of justifying the title.
I give Ephesus NO authority.
"Actually, the theological purpose was to protect the UNITY of Christ (as well as His deity), politics notwithstanding.
There is one personal subject in Christ, not two. "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesus was tragedy not a theological answer. This church was corrupt. The leaders were appointed and answered to the emperor. To use a title that was probably popular with the pagan Artemis worshipers and then call a Christian in good standing on the carpet because he wont use it, and then to force him into a debate over the logic and then excommunicate him over his argument in about a mysterious event, is a travesty.
And as I said before, the only reason you guys can keep you logic together is to agree to limit the term mother and God, neither of which folks do naturally when they engage the debate. They begin to argue based on the natural definition of mother and God and then find out the rug is pulled half way into the conversation by being told the word mother is being limited in scope for the purposes of justifying the title.
I give Ephesus NO authority.
There is one personal subject in Christ, not two. "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesus was tragedy not a theological answer. This church was corrupt. The leaders were appointed and answered to the emperor. To use a title that was probably popular with the pagan Artemis worshipers and then call a Christian in good standing on the carpet because he wont use it, and then to force him into a debate over the logic and then excommunicate him over his argument in about a mysterious event, is a travesty.
And as I said before, the only reason you guys can keep you logic together is to agree to limit the term mother and God, neither of which folks do naturally when they engage the debate. They begin to argue based on the natural definition of mother and God and then find out the rug is pulled half way into the conversation by being told the word mother is being limited in scope for the purposes of justifying the title.
I give Ephesus NO authority.
No.
No.
Yes.
If you refer to God the Son, yes.
No, scripture does not record her saying this.
No. BTW, the phrase scripture referrs to is "Master". "Lord" itself was a 17th century word for a master. It was not a term exclusively used to refer to deification. When I was a child, my mother was my Lord. It sounds funny in our 21st century verbage, but it's scripturally accurate.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
When one selectively and narrowly interprets history to further an agenda, it's not surprising that historical revisionism is the result.
I'm just limiting the term to what it actually means and has meant historically.
Perhaps if "they" wouldn't bring the wrong presuppositions to the argument, there wouldn't be this confusion.
At any rate, mother naturally means "conceive and give birth to". Since, the One Mary conceived and gave birth to is in fact God incarnate, then Mary can appropriately called the "mother of God."
I'm not surprised.
1) JohnV, Please explain why Hebrew 7:3 denies that Son of God has a Mother.
2) Question to everyone who claim to call Mary as Mother of God:
a) Was Son of God 100% human and 100% divine in unity before He was born out of Mary ?
b) Can we not describe the personality of Jesus as 100% human and 100% divine in unity, while we explain the human nature was attached to Him thru Mary?
2) Question to everyone who claim to call Mary as Mother of God:
a) Was Son of God 100% human and 100% divine in unity before He was born out of Mary ?
b) Can we not describe the personality of Jesus as 100% human and 100% divine in unity, while we explain the human nature was attached to Him thru Mary?
Acts 19:28 And when they heard [these sayings], they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great [is] Diana(Artemis) of the Ephesians.
This zeal and eagerness to worship the goddess still remained at the time of Ephesus Council in 431AD and the mob surrounded the Council so that they may declare Mary as Mother of God!
Even today, on this world there are so many people who are eager to have a goddess by having "Mother of God", instead of looking up Jesus Christ directly and having Him in their hearts.
Such eagerness and zeal is often found in goddess worshippers as well.
Nobody among the posters calling Mary Mother of God has explained Hebrews 7:3 so far.
Doesn't it say that Melchizedek has no Mother as Son of God has no Mother?
It means Melchizedex has no Mother, and Son of God has no Mother, thus both are very similar each other. Can anyone disprove this interpretation?
This zeal and eagerness to worship the goddess still remained at the time of Ephesus Council in 431AD and the mob surrounded the Council so that they may declare Mary as Mother of God!
Even today, on this world there are so many people who are eager to have a goddess by having "Mother of God", instead of looking up Jesus Christ directly and having Him in their hearts.
Such eagerness and zeal is often found in goddess worshippers as well.
Nobody among the posters calling Mary Mother of God has explained Hebrews 7:3 so far.
Doesn't it say that Melchizedek has no Mother as Son of God has no Mother?
It means Melchizedex has no Mother, and Son of God has no Mother, thus both are very similar each other. Can anyone disprove this interpretation?
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
If you say so...
I wonder again about the Mother of God claimers, the following questions:
1)Do you believe in the Unity of God, Tri-unity?
2)Then how can you say that God Holy Spirit does not have Mother, while Son of God has Mother?
Son of God has Mother, Holy Spirit doesn't have Mother, but 3 deities are in one and in unity.
Does it make sense?
My interpretation is that Mary is the mother only for the human nature of Jesus. Is it unsatisfactory to you?
1)Do you believe in the Unity of God, Tri-unity?
2)Then how can you say that God Holy Spirit does not have Mother, while Son of God has Mother?
Son of God has Mother, Holy Spirit doesn't have Mother, but 3 deities are in one and in unity.
Does it make sense?
My interpretation is that Mary is the mother only for the human nature of Jesus. Is it unsatisfactory to you?
I am feeling ignored now, but I am used to it.
Upon further review, Hebrew 7:3 is not about Christ. It is about a man as such w/o father, mother, or geneology and does not apply to Christ. What is important Melchizedek who meerly appears without lineage as a priest serves as a type that points to Christ who is high priest without beginning or end. It is in the fact that he remains a priest forever, he resembles Christ, not in the lack of a genelogy. Hebrews 7:3 is not saying Jesus does not have a geneology, only Melchizedek, therefore it has no bearing on whether or not we refer to Mary as the Theotokos. BTW it never says anything regarding the parentage of Jesus.
Upon further review, Hebrew 7:3 is not about Christ. It is about a man as such w/o father, mother, or geneology and does not apply to Christ. What is important Melchizedek who meerly appears without lineage as a priest serves as a type that points to Christ who is high priest without beginning or end. It is in the fact that he remains a priest forever, he resembles Christ, not in the lack of a genelogy. Hebrews 7:3 is not saying Jesus does not have a geneology, only Melchizedek, therefore it has no bearing on whether or not we refer to Mary as the Theotokos. BTW it never says anything regarding the parentage of Jesus.
In the narrative or in the statements, we can find "Mother of Jesus" but not "Mother of God"
Yet, you don't know how to interpret Heb 7:3
"Without Mother, like the Son of God"
Melchizedek has no mother as Son of God has no mother, isn't this interpretation wrong?
"Without Mother, like the Son of God"
Please don't go away from this truth!
Yet, you don't know how to interpret Heb 7:3
"Without Mother, like the Son of God"
Melchizedek has no mother as Son of God has no mother, isn't this interpretation wrong?
"Without Mother, like the Son of God"
Please don't go away from this truth!
Hebrews 7:3 is not about Jesus. Jesus is not compared until 7:11.
Further, Luke clearly referrs to Mary as Jesus "mother". Further, it referrs to Mary and Joseph as Jesus' "parents".
No. He wasn't 100% human until he was in her womb (presumably, when he was concieved).
Sounds good to me. That actually strengthens the idea that referring to Mary as the mother of God (when referring to Jesus) is permissible. So long as it is understood that the reference referrs to God the Son, there is no problem here.