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Does God love people in hell?

Does God love people in hell?


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Well, the whole "which came first" debate has been hashed out ad nauseam here and everywhere else, so I won't go there. I'll just say for anyone reading this thread, go to a bible software search and type in faith/belief and life/salvation and you will come up with dozen of verses which clearly indicate that life comes through faith not the other way around.

We are justified by faith. Regeneration and justification are not the same thing.

The ordo salutis is like this:

election/predestination, gospel call, regeneration, faith, justification, repentance, sanctification, glorification.

But its not just him, look at his research regarding the historical Reformed view...that was the point I was attempting to make.

I believe Macarthur is either mistaken or his words were taken out of context. In an age where God's justice and wrath were spoken of far mor than his love for the elect it would be a pretty far stretch to say the reformers and puritans believed God loved people in hell.
 
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Clearly shows God's love for sinners, the enemies of God we are commanded to love. If this doesn't describe those in hell, not sure what does. Does God command us to love everyone including our enemies, yet He does not?

All those for whom Christ died needed Christ to die for them.

Those who are in hell did not receive an atonement or they wouldn't be in hell.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I believe Macarthur is either mistaken or his words were taken out of context. In an age where God's justice and wrath were spoken of far mor than his love for the elect it would be a pretty far stretch to say the reformers and puritans believed God loved people in hell.

Well, I gave you the entire context, so it couldn't be that, so you must believe he is mistaken, yet you refuse to deal with the quotes and citations he clearly provided to support his views...sounds like you are so set on not be wrong that you are ignoring any argument that might prove you are.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
All those for whom Christ died needed Christ to die for them.

Those who are in hell did not receive an atonement or they wouldn't be in hell.
We disagree on the atonement, so we will not agree on who He loves. The point being here is while sinners we are enemies of God. This verse shows God loves those who are at enmity with Him, which describes those in Hell. God (who is love) would not require us to love everyone while He does not. We cannot out-love the very essence of What God is.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Hos.9:15

"Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels."


Isa.63:7-10

"I will recount the steadfast love of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD has granted us, and the great goodness to the house of Israel which he has granted them according to his mercy, according to the abundance of his steadfast love. For he said, Surely they are my people, sons who will not deal falsely; and he became their Savior. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved his holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them."
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
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Reformed theologian Thomas Goodwin, Exposition of Ephesians:

God is Love, and in Heaven all Attributes appear in Love: So Hell is nothing else, but all Attributes appearing in Wrath

Any ideas what this Reformed theologian means by "all Attributes"?
 
We disagree on the atonement, so we will not agree on who He loves. The point being here is while sinners we are enemies of God. This verse shows God loves those who are at enmity with Him, which describes those in Hell. God (who is love) would not require us to love everyone while He does not. We cannot out-love the very essence of What God is.

While we were sinners Christ died for us. But we were predestined to salvation before the world began. God loved us from eternity past.

Regarding why God can do things we cannot, He is omniscient, omnipotent, immutable, holy , and just. He is fully aware of the situation and he is better than us.

He has no equal.

We have plenty of equals. It is unjust for us to condemn others because we are just as bad. He is not. He is perfect. So it is for him to have mercy on who he will, it is the Divine perogative.

Romans 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
 
Well, I gave you the entire context, so it couldn't be that, so you must believe he is mistaken, yet you refuse to deal with the quotes and citations he clearly provided to support his views...sounds like you are so set on not be wrong that you are ignoring any argument that might prove you are.

The reformers did not teach God loved people in hell. There is no reason to even try to argue that. It is silly.

www.reformed.org
 
Reformed theologian Thomas Goodwin, Exposition of Ephesians:



Any ideas what this Reformed theologian means by "all Attributes"?

I think he means that in contrast to the perfect love for the elect manifest in heaven a perfect hatred for the reprobate is manifest in hell.

God pours out his perfect wrath in a perfect way.

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here is an excellent sermon called Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/je-sinners.htm
 

mets65

New Member
Of course God loves people in hell, too bad they couldn't accept Christ and they could be with him in Heaven.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
The reformers did not teach God loved people in hell. There is no reason to even try to argue that. It is silly.

Does God So Love the World? (John MacArthur)

Does God So Love the World?

Love is the best known but least understood of all God's attributes. Almost everyone who believes in God these days sees Him as a God of love. I have even met agnostics who are quite certain that if God exists, He must be benevolent, compassionate, and loving.

All those things are infinitely true about God, of course, but not in the way most people think. Because of the influence of modern liberal theology, many suppose that God's love and goodness ultimately nullify His righteousness, justice, and holy wrath. They envision God as a benign heavenly grandfather-tolerant, affable, lenient, permissive, devoid of any real displeasure over sin, who without consideration of His holiness will benignly pass over sin and accept people as they are.

Liberal thinking about God's love also permeates much of evangelicalism today. We have lost the reality of God's wrath. We have disregarded His hatred for sin. The God most evangelicals now describe is all-loving and not at all angry. We have forgotten that "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). We do not believe in that kind of God anymore.

We must recapture some of the holy terror that comes with a right understanding of God's righteous anger. We need to remember that God's wrath does burn against impenitent sinners (Psalm 38:1-3). That reality is the very thing that makes His love so amazing. Only those who see themselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God can fully appreciate the magnitude and wonder of His love.

In that regard, our generation is surely at a greater disadvantage than any previous age. We have been force-fed the doctrines of self-esteem for so long that most people don't really view themselves as sinners worthy of divine wrath. On top of that, religious liberalism, humanism, evangelical compromise, and ignorance of the Scriptures have all worked against a right understanding of who God is. Ironically, in an age that conceives of God as wholly loving, altogether devoid of wrath, few people really understand what God's love is all about.

How we address the misconception of the present age is crucial. We must not respond to an overemphasis on divine love by denying that God is love. Our generation's imbalanced view of God cannot be corrected by an equal imbalance in the opposite direction, a very real danger in some circles. I'm deeply concerned about a growing trend I've noticed-particularly among people committed to the biblical truth of God's sovereignty and divine election. Some of them flatly deny that God in any sense loves those whom He has not chosen for salvation.

I am troubled by the tendency of some-often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine-who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency.

The argument inevitably goes like this: Psalm 7:11 tells us "God is angry with the wicked every day." It seems reasonable to assume that if God loved everyone, He would have chosen everyone unto salvation. Therefore, God does not love the non-elect. Those who hold this view often go to great lengths to argue that John 3:16 cannot really mean God loves the whole world.

Perhaps the best-known argument for this view is found the unabridged edition of an otherwise excellent book, The Sovereignty of God, by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." [1] He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world…") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"[2]

Pink was attempting to make the crucial point that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love. The gist of his argument is certainly valid: It is folly to think that God loves all alike, or that He is compelled by some rule of fairness to love everyone equally. Scripture teaches us that God loves because He chooses to love (Deuteronomy 7:6-7), because He is loving (God is love, 1 John 4:8), not because He is under some obligation to love everyone the same.

Nothing but God's own sovereign good pleasure compels Him to love sinners. Nothing but His own sovereign will governs His love. That has to be true, since there is certainly nothing in any sinner worthy of even the smallest degree of divine love.

Unfortunately, Pink took the corollary too far. The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that those mercies flow out of God's boundless love? It is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.

We must understand that it is God's very nature to love. The reason our Lord commanded us to love our enemies is "in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). Jesus clearly characterized His Father as One who loves even those who purposefully set themselves at enmity against Him.

At this point, however, an important distinction must be made: God loves believers with a particular love. God's love for the elect is an infinite, eternal, saving love. We know from Scripture that this great love was the very cause of our election (Ephesians 2:4). Such love clearly is not directed toward all of mankind indiscriminately, but is bestowed uniquely and individually on those whom God chose in eternity past.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Part 2 of MacArthur:

But from that, it does not follow that God's attitude toward those He did not elect must be unmitigated hatred. Surely His pleading with the lost, His offers of mercy to the reprobate, and the call of the gospel to all who hear are all sincere expressions of the heart of a loving God. Remember, He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but tenderly calls sinners to turn from their evil ways and live.

Reformed theology has historically been the branch of evangelicalism most strongly committed to the sovereignty of God. At the same time, the mainstream of Reformed theologians have always affirmed the love of God for all sinners. John Calvin himself wrote regarding John 3:16, "[Two] points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." [3]

Calvin continues to explain the biblical balance that both the gospel invitation and "the world" that God loves are by no means limited to the elect alone. He also recognized that God's electing, saving love is uniquely bestowed on His chosen ones.

Those same truths, reflecting a biblical balance, have been vigorously defended by a host of Reformed stalwarts, including Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others. In no sense does belief in divine sovereignty rule out the love of God for all humanity.

We are seeing today, in some circles, an almost unprecedented interest in the doctrines of the Reformation and the Puritan eras. I'm very encouraged by that in most respects. A return to those historic truths is, I'm convinced, absolutely necessary if the church is to survive. Yet there is a danger when overzealous souls misuse a doctrine like divine sovereignty to deny God's sincere offer of mercy to all sinners.

We must maintain a carefully balanced perspective as we pursue our study of God's love. God's love cannot be isolated from His wrath and vice versa. Nor are His love and wrath in opposition to each other like some mystical yin-yang principle. Both attributes are constant, perfect, without ebb or flow. His wrath coexists with His love; therefore, the two never contradict. Such are the perfections of God that we can never begin to comprehend these things. Above all, we must not set them against one another, as if there were somehow a discrepancy in God.

Both God's wrath and His love work to the same ultimate end-His glory. God is glorified in the condemnation of the wicked; He is glorified in every expression of love for all people without exception; and He is glorified in the particular love He manifests in saving His people.

Expressions of wrath and expressions of love-all are necessary to display God's full glory. We must never ignore any aspect of His character, nor magnify one to the exclusion of another. When we commit those errors, we throw off the biblical balance, distort the true nature of God, and diminish His real glory.

Does God so love the world? Emphatically-yes! Proclaim that truth far and wide, and do so against the backdrop of God's perfect wrath that awaits everyone who does not repent and turn to Christ.

Does the love of God differ in the breadth and depth and manner of its expression? Yes it does. Praise Him for the many manifestations of His love, especially toward the non-elect, and rejoice in the particular manifestation of His saving love for you who believe. God has chosen to display in you the glory of His redeeming grace.

[1]Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1930), 29-30.

[2]Ibid., 314.

[3]John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, William Pringle, trans. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979 reprint), 123.

Adapted from The God Who Loves © 2001 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved.

• Grace to You (Thursday, July 21, 2005)
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
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Of course God loves people in hell, too bad they couldn't accept Christ and they could be with him in Heaven.

If either heaven or hell is the end result of God 'loving us all,' .. ain't we just lucky? "Love" has no meaning at all if He loves those in hell. Or maybe the inquisitors loved the heretics they were stretching on the rack, 'testing' with red-hot pincers and burning at the stake?
 

freeatlast

New Member
Will love that has the power to save, save indeed?

What do you think of the following two videos by pastors who believe that God doesn't love people in hell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_0WIEMroww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZKJSNVgqM

if God hates those who now live and sin, (psalm 5:5) but choses to shed His love on them for salvation and many refuse His offer then there is no reason to believe that He continues to love those who have sinned unto judgment and eternal torment. So no God does not love those who are in hell.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
My answer to the poll question, "Does God love people in hell?" was no.

But the question in the OP was different: "Will love that has the power to save, save indeed?"

I would answer "yes" to that, unless Osage (the original poster) meant, "Will love that has the power to save every human being who has ever lived, is living, or will live, save universally?"
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
For those who may be interested, many of the Reformed persuasion would disagree with them on this point.

Surely whether or not you agree that the "first one sounded like henry mahan" will depend, not on your persuasion, but on how well you know that man's voice. :)
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
If either heaven or hell is the end result of God 'loving us all,' .. ain't we just lucky? "Love" has no meaning at all if He loves those in hell. Or maybe the inquisitors loved the heretics they were stretching on the rack, 'testing' with red-hot pincers and burning at the stake?

Matthew 18:
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Matthew 23:
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [Some manuscripts include here words similar to Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47.]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Many people think they are God and their judgment is righteous and how their understanding is the truth, but God said this.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know Him who said, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, " THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
 
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David Lamb

Well-Known Member
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Clearly shows God's love for sinners, the enemies of God we are commanded to love. If this doesn't describe those in hell, not sure what does. Does God command us to love everyone including our enemies, yet He does not?

Maybe it could refer to people in hell, but only IF:

1. Paul's very next words, in Romans 5.9-11 didn't make it crystal clear that he was not referring to those in hell:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
People in hell are not "reconciled to God", they are not saved by Christ's life, nor have they received reconcilliation through Him.

And IF:

2. the letter had been addressed to everyone living in Rome, and not, as Romans 1.7-8 says (emphasis mine):

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Webdog, I know that you did not say that Romans 5.8 referred to those in hell, but that "still sinners" describes people in hell. Even so, the implication is (please correct me if I have misunderstood you) that the fact that God loved Christians before they were converted lends support to the idea that God must love people in hell.
 
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