Does God need humans to carry out his plans?

[xdisciplex]

If God can do whatever he wants them this makes prayer look pretty obsolete.Why did David for example have to pray all the time while the Israelites were fighting and as soon as he stopped and lowered his hands the enemy started to win the the battle?

 

[DHK]

If God can do whatever he wants them this makes prayer look pretty obsolete.Why did David for example have to pray all the time while the Israelites were fighting and as soon as he stopped and lowered his hands the enemy started to win the the battle?

God could...but doesn't. He chooses to act according to His Divine will, out of love for the creatures that He has created. He has chosen to reveal part of that plan to us in the Bible. He has chosen "not to lie" and keep the promises that are in that book. God never goes against his nature, or against his promise. God is a God of love. He does not contradict His Word. To find out about God, His purposes and will and plan for your life--read and study His Word.
DHK

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Why could not an Infinite God design and devise a plan for certain desires of His to be accomplished only with the cooperation of human instrumentality? Who are we to limit Almighty God, or be His counselor as to how He chooses to see His plans and desires carried out? God is Sovereign, is He not?

 

[Marcia]

Alright then. Go stand in the corner and read your Geisler books.:smilewinkgrin:

Joseph Botwinick

So, can I quote you on that, Joseph? :thumbs:

 

[Alcott]

" Does God need humans to carry out his plans?"

Yes, if what his plans are, are for humans to carry out his plans.

 

[Claudia_T]

The walls of Jericho came tumbling down. IF the people didnt obey God, and walk around there for 7 days the walls wouldnt of come down. But they OBEYED God and it was GOD who made those walls come down.

God has the human instrumentalities involved but thats for their benefit, not His. He was teaching them obedience and faith in HIS power.

Then there's the thing where God tells Naaman to dip in the water 7 times .... God didnt need him to do that. It was God who made him well, but He wouldnt of till Naaman did what He told him to do.

It was for Naaman's benefit, not God's. To teach him a lesson.

Same with the 7th day Sabbath by the way. God didnt tell Naaman to dip in the water one time and didnt tell the people to march around Jericho one time, He said 7 times. Doing just what God tells us to do, then He blesses us... it's a concept thing.

 

[Amy.G]

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?"
God doesn't NEED us for a single thing. He WANTS us to join in His work. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why this is so hard to understand or accept. :BangHead:

 

[Alcott]

The walls of Jericho came tumbling down. IF the people didnt obey God, and walk around there for 7 days the walls wouldnt of come down.

How do you know they would not have come down? Does scripture say iff [if and only if] they march around the city for 7 days the walls will come down [and I don't think it says "tumble down" either]?

Doing just what God tells us to do, then He blesses us... it's a concept thing.

I really take issue with that trap. Working in a low-pay blue-collar job those first few years out of high school, I gave out loans to those other guys, based on "give to those who ask; do not turn away from those who want to borrow." They usually paid back, but I also got some threats, including with a knife once, was accused of being a racist when I said in response to all this "No more loans!", and was further accused when I chose to quit. And then the tithing thing... incompetent 'testimonies' by people about how they have been "blessed" [financially] by faithfully tithing; I put it to a statistical test of hypothesis and the test fails, and some people begin to ignore me because I say that, whe it's just obeying the scritpures they quote [Malachi 3:10] and telling the result.

No, it's not as simple far too many Christians want to make it out to be, with their own versions of the prosperity gospel.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy G. How would you respond to post #43?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy G. How would you respond to post #43?

I think the key word is "desire". Is it not the same thing that I said? God has no needs. He "desires" for us to work with Him. It's part of His plan. I don't think God ever said "I cant possibly do this by Myself"...I'll create man to do it for Me." Just my humble opinion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy G: I think the key word is "desire". Is it not the same thing that I said? God has no needs. He "desires" for us to work with Him. It's part of His plan. I don't think God ever said "I cant possibly do this by Myself"...I'll create man to do it for Me." Just my humble opinion.

HP: You sure look better smiling than beating your head against a wall.

All any of us have to offer in explaining the nature and character of God is indeed our HO. It is true that God’s existence is not based upon anything other than Himself, but could He create a need if He so desired, or could He create circumstances that could only be accomplished by means He chose to utilize, without which it would not be accomplished? Is it within the confines of reason that God could make a being that would be the creator of their own intents, intents which He could not create as well as allow those intents to serve a needed purpose in His economy?

It would appear to me that when you make a statement that God does not need anything we do, you are instilling a lack of purpose into the hearts and minds of men. I cannot believe that we serve no purpose or fulfill some need that God sees necessary in His economy, if not for Himself, for others or other reasons.

If you delegate the intents and subsequent acts God desires from us to mere meaningless busy work that He does not really need, you are laying the needed groundwork for instilling a careless and less than diligent attitude on the part of the listeners. It genders thoughts of what is the difference what I do? It either does not matter or God would do it anyway by another means. That appears to be the logical tendency of your position as I understand you.

What if a coach on a ball team transmitted the notion that nothing the players could do was needed by the coach or the school? What attitudes do you think it would promote in the players?

Take the parent you spoke of earlier. Are we to suppose that nothing the child can do in any way is really needed? If you desire to develop complacency or outright rebellion, present that notion, or allow the child to develop the notion that their actions are not really needed, and see how willing such a one is to comply with your demands or requests as they grow older. I say it would breed out right rebellion and slothfulness in short order.

If we desire to develop obedience and self worth, we are going to have to instill and reinforce the idea that we are depending on them to accomplish a needed task, even to the point of realizing that the outcome is going to be determined by their direct efforts or the lack thereof.

The training we do at an early age is but a precursor to the real goals, NEEDED by God and His economy to promote the good and diligent, and defeat the evil and the slothful attitudes that we so easily fall prey to.

God has real work for us to accomplish that He needs, both for reasons known only to Himself, as well as the promotion of righteousness and diligence in His economy we can readily see the worth of.

God needs for us to instill principles of righteousness in our children, just as one example. Our failure can and most certainly will affect not only our children, but those that come into contact with them. God needs us.

We were created to have and serve real purposes of God. He needs our willing obedience to fulfill the purposes He has designed for us to fulfill.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: You sure look better smiling than beating your head against a wall.

Thanks HP! I guess you can only beat your head against a wall for so long until you get a headache :laugh:. You make some good points. As creator, God can and does do all kinds of things in order to carry out His purpose. I don't think any of us can know the full extent of "the why" on this side of heaven. But, I believe that God chooses to use us in His plans because it's His desire to do so and not out of any kind of need. I think we have to be careful not to compare our way of thinking to God's. His ways are not our ways. We don't obey God because we feel needed by Him. We are to obey God simply because we love Him. John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. John 14:23 If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word.
When God created Adam and put him in the garden to tend it, it wasn't because the Lord needed it. God could have taken care of the garden simply by speaking a word, but He gave Adam purpose. Our life's purpose now should be to please our Lord and creator just because we love Him. I love Him because He first loved me. I don't need to feel "needed" by God because I know I am loved! If God did create some sort of "need" it's for our benefit not His. Everything God does as far as I have learned from His word...working in and thru all kinds of people and circumstances has been all for our benefit...to comform us to the image of Christ. God is all powerful, all knowing, all sufficient. He is love, He is truth. He is just and righteous, perfect, holy, loving, and full of grace. What could such an awesome God possibly need? No, we are the ones with the great need, not God.
Blessings

 

[xdisciplex]

Wanna know what I think?
I think some people here think that God cannot be God if God cannot do whatever he pleases to do. But I think this is not true. I think God also sticks to certain rules. God for example cannot simply forget about sin. He cannot do it. Does this mean he is not God? No.
God doesn't have to be able to do everything. God also cannot force people to love him. Does this mean he's not God? No. :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: As creator, God can and does do all kinds of things in order to carry out His purpose. I don't think any of us can know the full extent of "the why" on this side of heaven. But, I believe that God chooses to use us in His plans because it's His desire to do so and not out of any kind of need. I think we have to be careful not to compare our way of thinking to God's. His ways are not our ways.

HP: That sword cuts both ways. It also applies to those that tell us that they know God does not need anything from any others. Is that not trying to reason from a human’s perspective of Divine Omnipotence, in particular a Calvinisticly inclined perspective? It would certainly appear that way to me.

Amy: We don't obey God because we feel needed by Him. We are to obey God simply because we love Him.

HP: Who is to say that love does not incorporate a sense of need? I believe it does. It is not that love is driven by need alone, but need is part of it.

It was not good for man to be alone. God gave Adam a partner to love and cherish. Are we to assume that the love Adam and Eve had for each other did not consist 'in part' in the fulfilling of each others needs? I see no reason to just reason from a Calvinistic human perspective of God and assume without evidence that need is not a mutual benefit between God and His creation either. As you stated, we do not understand the full extent of the reasons why God created or what God sees as a need to be fulfilled if any, by man.

I see a war between God and Satan. God seemingly created this universe subsequent to Satan’s rebellion. It is most likely in my mind that this world and it’s human inhabitants are a proving ground for God, possibly vindicating for eternity His goodness and love for the universe which includes the punishment and confinement of evil for eternity. Man could well be, in ways unknown to us now, the free moral agent that has a real part in the victory God has been engaged in and is about to reach a point of culmination. Our free moral intents and subsequent actions might well be needed by God to vindicate in some small measure, His character before the angels or other sentient beings, especially those that fell. Eternity will be the revealer of those possible ideas. In the meantime, I will not limit God and beg the question as to his lack of all need, at least in one sense or another, reasoning from man’s limited perspective as to the character of God which in the case of some leads them to conclude that God has nothing He needs.

Possibly it would be wise to just agree on that which we know absolutely and without question, WE ALL NEED GOD!! Eternity will prove out what God needed and why or why not and in what sense, if any, there was a need of God He desires for us or others to have fulfilled.

If one is to error on the side of caution I believe it would have been far better for one to sense that they were fulfilling a need God had called them to, than to stand before Him and find out that while they argued about God not needing anything, they are then to realize that they have failed at completing the task He had given to them that He was in need of.

May we all be able to say at the end of our lives, we have completed the task which God called us to do.