Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

[SavedByGrace]

Their not?

Lack of discernment does not oblige others to agree, rather to make further examination.

dude, unless you KNOW what you are talking about, best not to!

 

[Mikey]

wanting to do something very much and not allowing anyone or any difficulties to stop you

God wanted that man sinned, that He made sure that no one, and nothing stopped Him!

This makes God the AUTHOR.

Argue all you like, but it is clear that the "Reformed" on BB don't really understand the English language!

No one wants to do something very much and not allowed to stop. That again is a false assertion.

Again you failed to address my post.

Can you specifically explain how your view fits with a God who is all knowing and all powerful. Explain specifically where my reasoning is wrong.

 

[Mikey]

dude, unless you KNOW what you are talking about, best not to!

Good advice, you should follow it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No one wants to do something very much and not allowed to stop. That again is a false assertion.

Again you failed to address my post.

Can you specifically explain how your view fits with a God who is all knowing and all powerful. Explain specifically where my reasoning is wrong.

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man, https://epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/WCF-ModernEnglish.pdf)

Show ONE verse in the 66 Books of the Bible that says that about God and the fall?

PLANNED to ORDER is CAUSED!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Good advice, you should follow it.

I do, unlike the "UnReformed" on here!

 

[timtofly]

I quite understand the word. I have no problem with believing that God ordains EVERYTHING. I find it to be a very comforting doctrine. I would hate to be living my life like a Deist, believing that my life was subject to the vagaries of the universe, that everything that happens is just random, except for maybe an instance here or an instance there.

The "vagaries of the universe" does not exist. You can take comfort in that truth.

 

[Silverhair]

That is a valid point. If you read Edwards or any discussion of this that goes beyond calling each other names you find this argument. I tend to think that God created Adam with the primary wish that Adam not sin. But the problem for my argument is that God is all knowing and all powerful and Adam did sin, yet God could have prevented it. One Calvinist argument is that God has two wills. He honestly did not want Adam to sin. But he also wanted to give Adam a truly free will. Being God, he knew Adam would sin (he knows everything) and thus the plan of the Fall, sending Christ, redeeming a multitude of people was already in place. This was God's sovereign will. Now, I think this is a fairly weak argument. But, and this is very important - for all of us on here who believe God is all knowing and all powerful we are left with the fact that Adam did sin. God either knew of it beforehand and allowed it anyway, or it took him by surprise and he reacted with the plan of redemption. I would make 2 points:

No non-Calvinist has been able to come up with a better explanation for God knowing something and allowing it to happen and letting it happen and not being somehow thought to "ordain" it.

Also, some Calvinists do go too far I think in describing events as being directly attributable to God. For instance, we live in a fallen world, of our own making. We die and have accidents. But if a plane crashes I don't think it's correct to automatically say "God crashed the plane". Some do, and I don't agree with them.

Dave I can agree with some of what you have said, God does not want anyone to sin but we do. Since that is a reality we are presented with two options. Remembering that God is sovereign we have 1] God ordains everything that happens including sin or 2] God ordains that man has a free will and can make real choices. If God ordains all things then He is the author of sin whereas if man has that God given free will then he is responsible for his sins.

The Calvinist wants to have their cake and eat it to. They want God to be sovereign and ordain everything but not be the author of sin or they say that man has the free will to sin but not the free will to chose God.

The problem as I see it is that Calvinists want to decide how God is sovereign. The reality is that God is sovereign and because He is He gets to decide. If He wants to control a situation He can if He decides to let man follow their own sinful ways He does. But and this is where Calvinists throw up their hands, if God decides to allow man a free will so as to chose to follow Christ Jesus He can and does.

God is sovereign over His sovereignty, if He decides to act or not act He is still sovereign. If He decides to grant or not grant true free will He is still sovereign.

Dave your last two paragraphs seem to contradict each other. You say God has to ordain everything and yet He is not responsible for a plane crash. Sorry you cannot have it both ways.

 

[Mikey]

“Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory” (On the Fall of Man, https://epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/WCF-ModernEnglish.pdf)

Show ONE verse in the 66 Books of the Bible that says that about God and the fall?

PLANNED to ORDER is CAUSED!

Again you haven't answered my question. Instead you asked a question yourself.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin? Yes
Did God have the power to prevent Adam and Eve from Sinning? Yes
Did God stop Adam and Eve from Sinning? No

So God decided to create the world knowing that Adam and Eve would sin, thus initiating the Fall.
So was the Fall part of God's plan? Yes.

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

 

[DaveXR650]

The Calvinist wants to have their cake and eat it to. They want God to be sovereign and ordain everything but not be the author of sin or they say that man has the free will to sin but not the free will to chose God.

@Silverhair
You see @Iconoclast reply to me in post 175. There is some truth in what you are saying. There is a range of opinion when it comes to how meticulous God is in the events of the world. You can judge for yourself the various posts on here and articles you see elsewhere. I think that some Calvinists do go so far in the idea that God determines everything that they indeed make God the author of evil. I think the idea of "two wills" while it may not be a slam dunk, is a viable idea. But you have to realize that the arguments regarding God's sovereignty over various events cannot be applied in the same way to men's salvation because we all believe on here that man, after the Fall has been profoundly changed and everyone from high Calvinists to fundamental Baptist preachers clearly teach that without the action of the Holy Spirit one simply cannot come to Christ. We differ on the specifics but unless you follow a Pelagian belief system we believe we are not as free as Adam to not sin or go to God.

Are There Two Wills in God?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Again you haven't answered my question. Instead you asked a question yourself.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin? Yes
Did God have the power to prevent Adam and Eve from Sinning? Yes
Did God stop Adam and Eve from Sinning? No

So God decided to create the world knowing that Adam and Eve would sin, thus initiating the Fall.
So was the Fall part of God's plan? Yes.

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

Did God ORDER the fall? NO!

 

[Silverhair]

"Silverhair,




Did sin surprise God?
Could God not prevent the evil men?

The cross was ordained to take place.
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

It was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was not just relaxing , and God forced him to betray Jesus.
He did what he wanted to do, for 30 pieces of silver.

Did sin surprise God? NO it did not
Could God not prevent the evil men? Yes He could have
My answers in Blue

Yes God foreknew the cross, He planned it, see Gen 3:15. I have not disagreed that God foreknows all that is going happen. Where you run into problems is that you think God ordains/decrees all things then want to duck for cover when the problems of your view are pointed out to you.

So if God ordained/decreed the cross in advance and made sure that it happened then how is that different from Him ordaining that Judas would betray Christ Jesus. You have just removed any ability or choice from Judas. Now you will say that Judas had exercised his free will to sin, but is that really free will when you have no choice.
For the non-calvinist we see no problem here. God has a plan for the salvation of man and it will be worked out. Judas fit into that plan because he made a free will choice to betray Christ Jesus just as all those that freely trust in Christ Jesus fit into Gods plan.

This may help:
Oxford English Dictionary
Ordain
(of God or fate) decide (something) in advance.

 

[Mikey]

Did God ORDER the fall? NO!

Can we get more thoughtful answer, with an proper explanation of your position. rather than a five word reply. My post did not say God ordered the fall. So are you unable to respond to my post?

What part of the post do you disagree with?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can we get more thoughtful answer, with an proper explanation of your positer. rather than a five word reply.

My post did not say God ordered the fall. So are you unable to respond to my post?

Was the fall part of God's plan?

Read the OP again

 

[AustinC]

Read the OP again

We have all read the OP.
You have dug your feet in the sand on your desert island of one and you refuse any offer to persuade you to leave your desert island.
I have a Wilson volleyball for you if you need company.

 

[Mikey]

Read the OP again

Respond to the post. I wrote a reply and you did not engage with what i wrote. Instead you just repeating the same sentence again and again.

It's okay if you don't have an answer. But maybe rather than sticking you fingers in your ears and shouting " God is the author of sin" "God did not order sin", maybe listen and think and you might actually come to a biblical position.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Respond to the post. I wrote a reply and you did not engage with what i wrote. Instead you just repeating the same sentence again and again.

It's okay if you don't have an answer. But maybe rather than sticking you fingers in your ears and shouting " God is the author of sin" "God did not order sin", maybe listen and think and you might actually come to a biblical position.

I have given my position many times in this thread. No point in repeating myself over and again

 

[Iconoclast]

You said that God COULD NOT HAVE destroyed the devil. This is HERESY!

He did destroy him at the cross.
You are suggesting it would have been wiser to do it differently.
I know God is perfect in all His ways.
He never comes up short.
Perfect plan, perfect timing.

 

[Mikey]

I have given my position many times in this thread. No point in repeating myself over and again

i set out a selection of statements , then from those statements made a conclusion. All i asked is that when you quote my post you actually engage with what i wrote. So if you can't explain why or where i'm wrong just admit it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

He did destroy him at the cross.
You are suggesting it would have been wiser to do it differently.
I know God is perfect in all His ways.
He never comes up short.
Perfect plan, perfect timing.

I was and am talking about when the devil fell

 

[Mikey]