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Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

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Iconoclast said:
you did not answer the question
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deal with the meaning of ORDAIN. It is clear that if I ORDAIN, or ORDER, which is what it means, anything, then I am RFESPONSIBLE for it. If I ORDER a person to be killed, as David did when he had Uriah murdered, it was as good as David doing it! You are trying to change the meaning of words that the Reformed "confessions" use, because they are against the Bible, and you cannot admit that they are WRONG!
 
I

Iconoclast

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All of you blame God for mans sin guys seek to put things completely backwards.
You profanely suggest a Holy ,Perfect, God can in any way be unjust and even sin.
Reformed persons start with the revealed truth of all of God's Holy attributes...He never acts inconsistent with His attributes.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Iconoclast said:
All of you blame God for mans sin guys seek to put things completely backwards.
You profanely suggest a Holy ,Perfect, God can in any way be unjust and even sin.
Reformed persons start with the revealed truth of all of God's Holy attributes...He never acts inconsistent with His attributes.
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Can you define what ORDAIN is or not
 
I

Iconoclast

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="SavedByGrace,
SavedByGrace said:
Can you define what ORDAIN is or not
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I asked you how God described the Assyrians.What did they do? Isa.10
Can you answer that?
How did God use them in His providence?
Did God force them to do anything?
Were they having tea and crumpets,and God demanded them to attack a n d do wicked things?
 
I

Iconoclast

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SavedByGrace said:
In another thread, I asked if the present crisis in Ukraine, was "ordained" by God, as He is said to ALL things according to Reformed theololgy.

This is what @Iconoclast said:

"Yes it does. Think about the attributes of God. Can an all knowing God, not know?
Nothing can happen or move randomly outside of God decreeing it to do so.
God does not make Putin do evil.
Putin's self will acts according to his own fallen, unregenerate, nature.
SBG....we believe God is Holy,just,and good.
His perfect means He cannot increase or diminish...or He would not be Perfect.
Does that help.
God restrained Abimelech, by way of a dream...but let Hitler bring horrendous violence...like the Assaryians in Isa.10

To "ordain" means that God would "cause" what happens in our world. Both terms go together.

God is ALL KNOWING (Omniscience), but this does not mean that He is the actual "cause", of everything in our world.

For reasons that are not disclosed to our finite minds in the Infinite Word of God, God does "allow", but not "cause", even evil in this world. And does indeed many times use it to bring good.

In the present situation in Ukraine, where this Sovereign country has been INVADED by the Russian leader, Putin, who is murdering many people, and forcing them to subject themselves to his rule. How far do we say that God has "ordained", or "caused" this atrocious behavior, by this wicked man?

How can The Holy God of the Bible, be directly responsible for "causing" these acts?
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The Decrees of God | Monergism
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Foreknowledge and Determinism are not the same thing.
Navigating the free will of men to arrive at a desired end and Determinism are not the same thing.
The concept of "nuance" is absent in Calvinism.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Iconoclast said:
="SavedByGrace,

I asked you how God described the Assyrians.What did they do? Isa.10
Can you answer that?
How did God use them in His providence?
Did God force them to do anything?
Were they having tea and crumpets,and God demanded them to attack a n d do wicked things?
Click to expand...

I have read isaiah chapter 10 and can see no problem here
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
Foreknowledge and Determinism are not the same thing.
Navigating the free will of men to arrive at a desired end and Determinism are not the same thing.
The concept of "nuance" is absent in Calvinism.
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This is well said. As I said in an earlier post, there are plenty of quotes from notable Calvinists that do indeed make God the author of sin and make it seem He is responsible at a level I am not comfortable with. I think absolute determinism is a weakness of Calvinism and I don't think it is universal in Calvinism.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
deal with the meaning of ORDAIN. It is clear that if I ORDAIN, or ORDER, which is what it means, anything, then I am RFESPONSIBLE for it. If I ORDER a person to be killed, as David did when he had Uriah murdered, it was as good as David doing it! You are trying to change the meaning of words that the Reformed "confessions" use, because they are against the Bible, and you cannot admit that they are WRONG!
Click to expand...
I have answered you, but you have me on ignore. Now you just shout louder, even though you have been answered.

It is sad that human ignorance leads them to questioning the Sovereignty of God in all things. Simply because humans cannot wrap their puny grasp on mortality around God, they then start to accuse God of horrific things...not because God does those things they accuse him of, but solely because humans want God to be made in their image.
This thread, questioning the Sovereignty of God, is a perfect example of idol making.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

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DaveXR650 said:
I don't think Reformed theology has a perfect answer to this but neither does any other system. I have to admit that to truly say that God ordains every single molecule in the universe in the sense that ordain means he actively decrees it to be then I don't see how you can avoid making God the author of evil.
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"...which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind..." Jer 7:31; 19:5; 32:35

I've done many many things in my life that He never intended for me to ever do. He DID NOT predestine me to do those things. He predestined me to be conformed to the image of His Son, not to do the evil deeds that I have done.

'Overruling providence' (Romans 8:28) is much preferred over the unbiblical 'predestination of all things' of absolutism and Calvinism.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Can you define what ORDAIN is or not
Click to expand...
It means to decree something. It does not mean that the person who ordains something is directly the cause of all the events that occur for it to come about. If I own a business, and I decide to open a branch in the next town over, I might first look for a manager who wants to manage the branch and when I find him I let him go to accomplish what I ordained. In this case. The manager wanted a chance to manage - I did not make him do it against his will, yet what I ordained came about.

In that sense God ordained that Adam fall. Adam did fall but he did so by his choice and free will. God did not make Adam sin and did not place Adam's hand on the fruit as he brought it to his mouth. Some Calvinists do make it seem that God did have his hands over Adams hands. That is what I don't agree with.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
kyredneck said:
'Overruling providence' (Romans 8:28) is much preferred over the unbiblical 'predestination of all things' of absolutism and Calvinism.
Click to expand...

Overruling providence and Romans 8:28 are favorite verses of Calvinists. Meticulous, absolute determinism of every minute event is not a universal tenet of Calvinism.

But as Edwards says, there is a sense that if God has foreknowledge that something will infallibly come to pass - and if God has the ability to allow it or not - then it is possible to say that God ordained it. He could have stopped it but did not. It is true that in that way God is responsible and at that point we have to submit and not comment. We are not God. Our responsibilities are more clear and suited to our makeup. If I go into a neighbors house and notice that he is making a bomb on the kitchen table, and I don't do anything - I am morally culpable. Not so with God. He has a right to use an evil person like that, doing what he wants to do, to make him part of some greater chain of events that are ordained. I would challenge anyone to come up with a better answer than Edwards in this area.
 
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