Does God react, relent or change in response to man?

[Amy.G]

Perhaps God saying that He now knew Abraham feared the Lord is similar to the times God said He remembered. For instance, the rainbow was set in the clouds to remind God not to destroy the earth with a flood, or the prayers of Cornelius that God said came up as a "memorial" to Him.

God is omniscient and He doesn't forget. So maybe these words are anthropomorphisms? (Did I get that word right?)

 

[DHK]

I am not inconsistent whatsoever, what do the scriptures say?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

The phrase is anthropormorphic, so to speak. He is speaking in terms that will help Abraham to understand God in a better light. The Bible often uses such terminology. We know God is omniscient. He knows the beginning from the end. He is the Alpha and the Omega. If he was not omniscient and did not know all things he would not be God.

In Isaiah he says that he "will uphold us with the right hand of his righteousness.
But God is spirit. He doesn't have a right hand.

He will hide us under his wing.
--But he doesn't have wings.

These are anthropormorphisms. And I believe God was speaking in a similar way to Abraham helping him to understand what he was doing by asking him to carry out such a task.

 

[Iconoclast]

Perhaps God saying that He now knew Abraham feared the Lord is similar to the times God said He remembered. For instance, the rainbow was set in the clouds to remind God not to destroy the earth with a flood, or the prayers of Cornelius that God said came up as a "memorial" to Him.

God is omniscient and He doesn't forget. So maybe these words are anthropomorphisms? (Did I get that word right?)

:thumbsup:good one Amy....:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Amy and DHK, you may very well be correct and this explanation sounds very reasonable, however it is still theory, and many disagree.

I tend to take this statement literal, I believe God is perfectly honest and does not make misleading comments.

 

[DHK]

Amy and DHK, you may very well be correct and this explanation sounds very reasonable, however it is still theory, and many disagree.

I tend to take this statement literal, I believe God is perfectly honest and does not make misleading comments.

If he does not make misleading statements then why does he infer that He has wings?

 

[Winman]

If he does not make misleading statements then why does he infer that He has wings?

Well, it is true and obvious that God does not always speak in literal terms. When God says he has wings, that is probably not literal, although God could surely manifest himself with wings if he so chose to do so. I do believe the angelic beings in Ezekiel had literal wings. The scriptures also say there is a spiritual body, being a spirit does not necessarily mean being an invisible ghost, although at times the Spirit manifests itself this way. When Jesus was baptized the Spirit manifested itself as a dove with wings.
At times it is obvious God uses hyperbole or speaks in poetry and should not be taken as literal.
But in the context of God's statement to Abraham I do not see this, it seems to be a very direct and literal statement.
We also have the statement of Jesus saying that he did not know the exact hour of his return, but his Father only. I also take this to be literal.
Yes, this seems like a contradiction, but I believe the fault lies in us, the scriptures never contradict themselves.

 

[jbh28]

I am glad you think God always tells the truth. But if so you must concede that God did not know if Abraham truly feared God until Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

No, I already gave you 2 reasons other than finding out something for a reason of a test.

As far as God being omniscient, I believe he is. But at the same time I see scripture like Gen 22:12 that seems to indicate God does not know some things until they actually happen. I have my own theory on how these can both be true without contradiction, but I doubt you would accept it.

Then God isn't omniscient. Either you know everything or you don't. If you learn something(like find out something when it happens) you didn't know it before....aka not omniscient. No I don't accept it because the Bible teaches God knows everything. He doesn't learn things. You are doing a double speak here. You say that you believe that God is omniscient, then you say you think God doesn't know some things. Pick which one you want and stick to it.

 

[jbh28]

Perhaps God saying that He now knew Abraham feared the Lord is similar to the times God said He remembered. For instance, the rainbow was set in the clouds to remind God not to destroy the earth with a flood, or the prayers of Cornelius that God said came up as a "memorial" to Him.

God is omniscient and He doesn't forget. So maybe these words are anthropomorphisms? (Did I get that word right?)

Yes, you got it right.

 

[jbh28]

But in the context of God's statement to Abraham I do not see this, it seems to be a very direct and literal statement.
We also have the statement of Jesus saying that he did not know the exact hour of his return, but his Father only. I also take this to be literal.
Yes, this seems like a contradiction, but I believe the fault lies in us, the scriptures never contradict themselves.

Jesus the human didn't know, Jesus as God did. You deny that God is omniscient. At least be man enough to admit it.

 

[jbh28]

I John 3:20 - "for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything"

Isaiah 46:9-10 "remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose"

So much for God learning things when they happen...

Psalm 139:4 "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether."

 

[Winman]

Jesus the human didn't know, Jesus as God did. You deny that God is omniscient. At least be man enough to admit it.

You have just agreed with what I wrote several weeks ago, that perhaps God has more than one perspective. You said Jesus didn't know as a man. Well, Jesus was still fully God as a man, he could walk on water, devils cringed in fear to him, he could raise the dead... all the while being fully man. And you admit he did not know.

I have been representing my view honestly from the beginning, and many here called me a heretic or said I deny God's omniscience. I was always saying I believe the scriptures for what they say, I did not make up the scriptures where Jesus said he did not know the hour he would return!

But now you say the very same thing.

And you are correct, Jesus clearly said he did not know the exact hour of his return, but his Father only.

I am glad you are now accepting scripture for what it truly says.

 

[jbh28]

You have just agreed with what I wrote several weeks ago, that perhaps God has more than one perspective. You said Jesus didn't know as a man. Well, Jesus was still fully God as a man, he could walk on water, devils cringed in fear to him, he could raise the dead... all the while being fully man. And you admit he did not know.

I have been representing my view honestly from the beginning, and many here called me a heretic or said I deny God's omniscience. I was always saying I believe the scriptures for what they say, I did not make up the scriptures where Jesus said he did not know the hour he would return!

But now you say the very same thing.

And you are correct, Jesus clearly said he did not know the exact hour of his return, but his Father only.

I am glad you are now accepting sscripture for what it truly says.

You do deny God's omniscience when you say that God doesn't know some things until they happen. Before they happened, if God didn't know something, then he doesn't' know everything. Again, pick which one you believe.

No, you still haven't responded to what is being said. Jesus Christ took on the form of a human and that's a mystery in itself.(Philippians 2:6–8) This isn't the same issue. God knows all things. There is nothing that God learns. God doesn't change his mind. God doesn't find out things when they happen, He knew them before they happened.

 

[Winman]

You do deny God's omniscience when you say that God doesn't know some things until they happen. Before they happened, if God didn't know something, then he doesn't' know everything. Again, pick which one you believe.

No, you still haven't responded to what is being said. Jesus Christ took on the form of a human and that's a mystery in itself.(Philippians 2:6–8) This isn't the same issue. God knows all things. There is nothing that God learns. God doesn't change his mind. God doesn't find out things when they happen, He knew them before they happened.

You came out of your box for one second, and then ran right back inside.
Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not and who should betray him, he knew the thoughts of men, these are not the abilities of a man, but God only.
And yet Jesus said he did not know the hour he would return, but his Father only.

Your problem is you cannot believe something unless you think you understand it in man's wisdom. I believe God's word even if I am not capable of understanding it.

 

[jbh28]

You came out of your box for one second, and then ran right back inside.

No, I've stayed exactly where I have been the whole time...consistant

Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not and who should betray him, he knew the thoughts of men, these are not the abilities of a man, but God only.

Correct

And yet Jesus said he did not know the hour he would return, but his Father only.

Right, as I cited Philippians 2. Jesus gave up some of this "knowledge" here on earth, but GOD know everything.

Your problem is you cannot believe something unless you think you understand it in man's wisdom. I believe God's word even if I am not capable of understanding it.

Come on Wimnan, I gave you Scripture. The problem is that I cannot believe something that isn't in Scripture. Your position isn't biblical. You say God learns things, which is unbiblical. You say that you believe that God is all knowing, then in the next sentence say He doesn't. Which one is it?



I John 3:20 - "for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything"

Isaiah 46:9-10 "remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose"

So much for God learning things when they happen...

Psalm 139:4 "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether."

 

[Winman]

No, I've stayed exactly where I have been the whole time...consistant

Correct
Right, as I cited Philippians 2. Jesus gave up some of this "knowledge" here on earth, but GOD know everything.
Come on Wimnan, I gave you Scripture. The problem is that I cannot believe something that isn't in Scripture. Your position isn't biblical. You say God learns things, which is unbiblical. You say that you believe that God is all knowing, then in the next sentence say He doesn't. Which one is it?



I John 3:20 - "for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything"

Isaiah 46:9-10 "remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose"

So much for God learning things when they happen...

Psalm 139:4 "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether."

Did it ever occur to you that when God spoke to men in the OT that he also emptied himself? Adam and Eve spoke to God face to face even after they sinned. Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to a friend (Exo 33:11). Abraham spoke directly to God and fed him a meal (Gen 18).
And yet the scriptures say no man hath seen God at any time in John 1:18.
Does that seem like a contradiction? I don't believe so, I think this was Jesus who spoke to Adam, Moses, and Abraham.
And perhaps Jesus has limited knowledge compared to his Father. If so, this could explain verses like Gen 22:12 or Mark 13:32 where Jesus said he did not know the exact day or hour he would return, but his Father only.
Look those scriptures up.

 

[jbh28]

Did it ever occur to you that when God spoke to men in the OT that he also emptied himself? Adam and Eve spoke to God face to face even after they sinned. Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to a friend (Exo 33:11). Abraham spoke directly to God and fed him a meal (Gen 18).
And yet the scriptures say no man hath seen God at any time in John 1:18.
Does that seem like a contradiction? I don't believe so, I think this was Jesus who spoke to Adam, Moses, and Abraham.
And perhaps Jesus has limited knowledge compared to his Father. If so, this could explain verses like Gen 22:12 or Mark 13:32 where Jesus said he did not know the exact day or hour he would return, but his Father only.
Look those scriptures up.

Do you have a verse for Jesus being there? Do you have a verse for Jesus emptying himself other than for being human? No, of course not. You still are denying that God knows everything(while saying that you do). (btw, God showed them what he wanted them to see, but they didn't see God because we know that no one other than the Son has seen God.)

I've given Scripture that says that God knows everything and He doesn't change. You can accept it or reject it. Your post here shows that you are backing out because you realize that you might not be correct in your view of God. Jesus limited himself on earth. Can God die? No, but Jesus did. Is God omnipotent? Sure, but Jesus was limited to the physical limits here on earth. Is God omniscient, yes. But Jesus limited his omniscience in some areas(not all) while on earth. I God omnipresent? Yes, but Jesus' human body was only in one place at a time. Philippians 2 teaches that Jesus emptied himself and didn't hold on to some of his divine powers in their full power(like the omnis). This is the only time this is mentioned.

I John 3:20 - "for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything"

Isaiah 46:9-10 "remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose"

So much for God learning things when they happen...

Psalm 139:4 "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether."

 

[DHK]

Well, it is true and obvious that God does not always speak in literal terms.

No, often he speaks in figurative terms. There are many similes and metaphors in the Bible. What did Jesus mean when he said:

I am the door.
Eat my flesh.
I am the good shepherd.
--None of these are literal; all are metaphors.

When God says he has wings, that is probably not literal, although God could surely manifest himself with wings if he so chose to do so.

That is a big IF. I don't believe he chooses to do so, and have no reason to believe he would.

I do believe the angelic beings in Ezekiel had literal wings.

Perhaps some. Probably very few of the total. Did the two angels that went toward Sodom and Gomorrah after dining with Abraham sprout wings?

The scriptures also say there is a spiritual body, being a spirit does not necessarily mean being an invisible ghost, although at times the Spirit manifests itself this way.

Here is what the Scripture says:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)

He is spirit, a spirit. That is the nature of God. He does not have a physical presence or body. Have you never debated "how many angels can stand on the head of a needle."
Angels are spirit. We cannot see them. We don't live in the spirit world.
God is spirit. If any should see God he would die. We cannot see him in this terrestrial body.

When Jesus was baptized the Spirit manifested itself as a dove with wings.

That was one time in history. He isn't like that all the time.

At times it is obvious God uses hyperbole or speaks in poetry and should not be taken as literal.

The Bible is written with many figures of speech. We need to realize where those figures of speech are, and how they are used.

But in the context of God's statement to Abraham I do not see this, it seems to be a very direct and literal statement.

Then it would be a very direct statement that would deny God's own divinity--an absurdity.

We also have the statement of Jesus saying that he did not know the exact hour of his return, but his Father only. I also take this to be literal.

As a man Jesus chose not to use many of his divine powers. His omniscience was one of those powers which at times he did not use, and at other times he did use. When he made that statement he made it as a man, and not as God. Just like when he went to the cross, he said he could have called 12 legions of angels and exercise his divine omnipotence. But he didn't. He chose to go to the cross willingly of his own will. No one forced him to go. He made the decision not to use his divine powers.

Yes, this seems like a contradiction, but I believe the fault lies in us, the scriptures never contradict themselves.

I don't see a contradiction. However, you are making the Scriptures contradict themselves by taking this view. You are robbing God of his divinity--his omniscience.

 

[Winman]

DHK, you just said Jesus limited himself as a man, and I agree. But didn't God have to also limit himself to appear to men in the OT? Why, if he had appeared in his glory they would have fallen dead on the spot, man cannot look on God and live.
So, when God appeared to Cain he may have been in this limited state and perhaps did not know where Abel was.
And of course when Jesus said he was a door it was figurative, that is obvious, but that is not the type of language he was using when he spoke to Abraham.
The fact remains that at times God spoke as if he did not know some things, and you cannot explain it any better than I can. The difference is that I don't pretend to know everything as some here seem to believe of themselves.

 

[webdog]

Jesus the human didn't know, Jesus as God did. You deny that God is omniscient. At least be man enough to admit it.

I thought you said you didn't separate His natures? In this post you did just that.

 

[jbh28]

I thought you said you didn't separate His natures? In this post you did just that.

There are differences between the natures.