Does God react, relent or change in response to man?

[webdog]

Because "I change not, because if I did you would have been destroyed a long time ago" is a definitive statement from God about himself.

Proper scriptural interpretation must observe the law of non contradiction. If those statements did teach that God did change and was not immutable then Malachi 3:6 would be contradicted.

So we know that they are anthropomorphisms. For the infinite to communicate with the finite he must condescend or leave the finite uncomprehending anything at all.

The problem is, the very thing you are using to show His actions are anthropomorphic is anthropomorphic in itself. God does not change in the way man changes. There is no contradiction, God does not change His mind in the manner man does, but that does not mean He doesn't change His mind or repent in a divine manner that pleases Him.

Is "believe and you will be saved" anthropomorphic as salvation occurs as a result of belief?

 

[The Archangel]

If an untruth is told to garner a response it is a lie.

You will have to defend that definition from scripture. Of course the definition you offer is something that comes from your own view of lie/untruth, not scripture.

We know, through the pages of scripture, that God does, indeed, test people to garner a response. It is not a lie, it is a test.

God moves in many ways throughout the pages of scripture to garner a response. This is basic.

If God was not going to really kill Hezekiah and he was not really going to die as He is already knew Hezekiah's response, the text is not truthful as it states this occurred as a result of Hezekiah's prayer.

So, then how do you deal with Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac? Was God lying to Abraham? If you take it that God was not testing Hezekiah, you must take it that God was not testing Abraham. Of course, the text itself tells us that God did test Abraham.

"The prayer of the righteous availeth much".

Definitely so. But it is the God to whom the prayer is made rather than the prayer itself or the man praying.

The Archangel

 

[Osage Bluestem]

The problem is, the very thing you are using to show His actions are anthropomorphic is anthropomorphic in itself. God does not change in the way man changes. There is no contradiction, God does not change His mind in the manner man does, but that does not mean He doesn't change His mind or repent in a divine manner that pleases Him.

Is "believe and you will be saved" anthropomorphic as salvation occurs as a result of belief?

An anthropomorphism is where God communicates things in a way that humans can understand.

When he says "I do not change" he is saying that he isn't surprised, he doesn't learn, he is the greatest thing that can possibly be concieved. I do not change is a definitive statement about himself, not an anthromorphic overview.

 

[Iconoclast]

"This is what the LORD says" is not a suggestion, is it? If this is not a decree, then I guess we can discount the other times where God spoke through His prophets or where we find "This is what the LORD says".

In addition if it was already purported to extend his time by 15 years, there would be no extension as it would have been part of he normal lifespan. The fact these were additional years shows these were added years NOT part of his decreed lifespan, that these came after hearing his prayer.


The story of Ninevah is not a good comparison as it further supports my position of God relenting AFTER their response to His decree. The difference with Ninevah as compared to Hezekiah is one was a threat and the other was not.


10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

III. Any such plan or purpose of God must have been formed eternally, and within himself.

1. It must have been eternally purposed, because God's only mode of existence, as has been heretofore proved, is eternal, and therefore his thoughts, and purpose, and plan must be eternal. The fact also that his knowledge is infinite, and cannot be increased, forbids the forming of plans in time, which, as they become known to him, would add to that knowledge. It is also to be remembered that the plan must precede its execution, but as time began with that execution, the plan must not have been formed in time, and must be eternal.

2. In like manner, also, was it formed within himself. He needed not to go without himself, either for the impulse which led to it, or the knowledge in which it was conceived. He had all knowledge, both of the actual and the possible, all wisdom as to the best end and means, all power to execute what he devised in the use, or without the use of appropriate secondary means, and free will to select, of all possible plans and means, whatever he himself should please, and the impulse which moved him existed alone in that knowledge and will.

if you want to read more here it is.
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj46/article3.html

 

[Winman]

You will have to defend that definition from scripture. Of course the definition you offer is something that comes from your own view of lie/untruth, not scripture.

We know, through the pages of scripture, that God does, indeed, test people to garner a response. It is not a lie, it is a test.

What is the purpose of a test if God already knows our response?

God moves in many ways throughout the pages of scripture to garner a response. This is basic.

Garner? Why doesn't God just command us to do what he wants us to do?

So, then how do you deal with Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac? Was God lying to Abraham? If you take it that God was not testing Hezekiah, you must take it that God was not testing Abraham. Of course, the text itself tells us that God did test Abraham.

God also said "for NOW I know that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Did God forget that he already knew how Abraham would respond?

Definitely so. But it is the God to whom the prayer is made rather than the prayer itself or the man praying.

The Archangel

Then why does God qualify that the person praying be righteous?

 

[jbh28]

What is the purpose of a test if God already knows our response?

For us to learn something. and example to others. There's 2 purposes.

Garner? Why doesn't God just command us to do what he wants us to do?


God also said "for NOW I know that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Did God forget that he already knew how Abraham would respond?



Then why does God qualify that the person praying be righteous?

Are you denying that God is omniscient?

 

[jbh28]

But it's not really a whole different subject. Christ's natures cannot be separated. This was the issue in the early church. The fact of the matter is Christ was fully divine when He made that statement. He was omniscient. That combined with the passage in Philipians 2 stating Christ "emptied Himself" need to be dealt with. The fact is, it is a mystery whether one will admit it or not.

I said nothing about separating. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. But how much communication there was is another topic of discussion. The point is, if you believe that God is omniscient, then He knew of the 15 years. If God didn't know of the 15 years, then he isn't omniscient. Omniscient means you have all(omni) knowledge(scient). If there is something that God doesn't know, then God doesn't have all knowledge.

 

[Winman]

For us to learn something. and example to others. There's 2 purposes.

So, when we take a driver's test to get our license, it is to demonstrate to ourselves we can drive and not to the authorities? That makes no sense at all.

Are you denying that God is omniscient?

Are you calling God a liar?

 

[Winman]

For us to learn something. and example to others. There's 2 purposes.

So, when we take a driver's test, it is to demonstrate to ourselves we can drive and not to the authorities? That makes no sense at all.

Are you denying that God is omniscient?

Are you calling God a liar?

 

[Rippon]

Are you calling God a liar?

JBH28 had asked you if you are denying that God is omniscient. It's a rather straight-forward query. Do you believe that God is omniscient? Yes,or no?

 

[jbh28]

So, when we take a driver's test to get our license, it is to demonstrate to ourselves we can drive and not to the authorities? That makes no sense at all.

Don't be ridiculous. I didn't say that a test is NEVER for that reason. I was giving examples of why you could test a person other than for that reason.

Are you calling God a liar?

No. Again I ask, is God omniscient? Yes or no

 

[Winman]

Don't be ridiculous. I didn't say that a test is NEVER for that reason. I was giving examples of why you could test a person other than for that reason.


No. Again I ask, is God omniscient? Yes or no

I am glad you think God always tells the truth. But if so you must concede that God did not know if Abraham truly feared God until Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

As far as God being omniscient, I believe he is. But at the same time I see scripture like Gen 22:12 that seems to indicate God does not know some things until they actually happen. I have my own theory on how these can both be true without contradiction, but I doubt you would accept it.

 

[Rippon]

As far as God being omniscient, I believe he is.

God does not know some things until they actually happen.

Massive inconsistency there Winman. So you think that God is omniscient --except when He's not. LOL

 

[quantumfaith]

Massive inconsistency there Winman. So you think that God is omniscient --except when He's not. LOL

To be intellectually honest to Winman, you should at least give the entire quote and not edit it as you may want it to be.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am glad you think God always tells the truth. But if so you must concede that God did not know if Abraham truly feared God until Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

As far as God being omniscient, I believe he is. But at the same time I see scripture like Gen 22:12 that seems to indicate God does not know some things until they actually happen. I have my own theory on how these can both be true without contradiction, but I doubt you would accept it.

Didnt you go down this road before with Luke?

 

[quantumfaith]

Massive inconsistency there Winman. So you think that God is omniscient --except when He's not. LOL

Now, Rippon, I hope you are sitting down. I actually agree with your position of God knowing everything, even before they happen.

 

[Rippon]

To be intellectually honest to Winman, you should at least give the entire quote and not edit it as you may want it to be.

I'm into the essence of the matter. Winman cannot have it both ways.

 

[Winman]

Massive inconsistency there Winman. So you think that God is omniscient --except when He's not. LOL

I am not inconsistent whatsoever, what do the scriptures say?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Can you read? When did God say he came to know that Abraham feared God?

I will tell you who is inconsistent, someone who claims to be a believer who does not believe what God said. That is inconsistent.

I don't always understand scripture, especially verses like Gen 22:12, but I believe it. That is consistent.

This does not make me ignorant either, some of the great theological minds have been confused by this verse, I am in good company.

Who is ignorant and hypocritical are those arrogant types who criticize others, while having no answers themselves. You cannot answer this verse any better than I can.

 

[The Archangel]

I am not inconsistent whatsoever, what do the scriptures say?

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Can you read? When did God say he came to know that Abraham feared God?

I will tell you who is inconsistent, someone who claims to be a believer who does not believe what God said. That is inconsistent.

I don't always understand scripture, especially verses like Gen 22:12, but I believe it. That is consistent.

This does not make me ignorant either, some of the great theological minds have been confused by this verse, I am in good company.

Who is ignorant and hypocritical are those arrogant types who criticize others, while having no answers themselves. You cannot answer this verse any better than I can.

And the attack has been commenced. Sad.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

And the attack has been commenced. Sad.

The Archangel

You'll get over it.