Does God react, relent or change in response to man?

[jbh28]

A false dichotomy is when only two options are presented, but another viable option is not. You said, "Either I'm right, or God is a changing God," which is a prime example of a false dichotomy.

I was meaning "either I'm right" (God doesn't change) or God does change(I'm wrong). I'm not sure of any other options.

I haven't read all your posts, but in the one you addressed to me you said, "I'm saying that while to us it appears as though God changes his mind, in reality he doesn't." Which to me suggests that you think God expresses himself incompletely, or in such a way that doesn't reveal reality.

Are you saying you have changed? I'll go back and see what I've missed. Thanks

Read my post 36

 

[Skandelon]

I was meaning "either I'm right" (God doesn't change) or God does change(I'm wrong). I'm not sure of any other options.

Well, there is the option that God's nature doesn't change, but that he does choose to react with his creation in the way the verses of the OP express he does. (Kind of like the quote in your post 36)

Read my post 36

Good post. Well stated. :thumbsup:

 

[Tom Butler]

Or you accept that both revealed truths must be accepted but not necessarily fully understood or explained.

Maybe some verses mean that God's nature and attributes don't change, while he has chosen to respond and react imminently within time and space with his creation. That certainly seems like a plausible explanation.

Well, I'll be the first to admit that we're into some pretty deep territory, particularly trying to divine the mind of God.

Let me offer another alternative. What if God had decreed that he would act in a certain way IF someone asked in prayer? That the prayer would be the trigger to what God intended to do? Now, that opens up more questions.

One, what if Hezekiah had not prayed? He would have died, in my opinion.
But, the omniscient God also knew that Hezekiah would pray, he would answer Hezekiah's prayer, and give him 15 more years.

And, God's warning to Hezekiah that he would die triggered the prayer.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Don]

Well, I'll be the first to admit that we're into some pretty deep territory, particularly trying to divine the mind of God.

Let me offer another alternative. What if God had decreed that he would act in a certain way IF someone asked in prayer? That the prayer would be the trigger to what God intended to do? Now, that opens up more questions.

One, what if Hezekiah had not prayed? He would have died, in my opinion.
But, the omniscient God also knew that Hezekiah would pray, he would answer Hezekiah's prayer, and give him 15 more years.

And, God's warning to Hezekiah that he would die triggered the prayer.

Just some thoughts.

Tom,
That presumes that God also knew there were times when He would have a certain thing in mind, and that He would change His mind (the many times we see "God repented").

I understand what you're saying about Hezekiah and God setting things up so that Hezekiah would pray and give Him the opportunity to show His glory; but you're going to have to dig deep and explain God setting things up so that He would change His mind. I believe it's possible, because with God all things are possible; just gonna have to work on the explanation.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom,
That presumes that God also knew there were times when He would have a certain thing in mind, and that He would change His mind (the many times we see "God repented").

I understand what you're saying about Hezekiah and God setting things up so that Hezekiah would pray and give Him the opportunity to show His glory; but you're going to have to dig deep and explain God setting things up so that He would change His mind. I believe it's possible, because with God all things are possible; just gonna have to work on the explanation.

You're right, the explanation is elusive. I'm convinced there is one, and we just haven't thought of it. And I don't think it is as simple as God's reacting to a prayer. As long as we have an immutable, omniscient God that view won't float for me.

 

[DHK]

Tom,
That presumes that God also knew there were times when He would have a certain thing in mind, and that He would change His mind (the many times we see "God repented").

I understand what you're saying about Hezekiah and God setting things up so that Hezekiah would pray and give Him the opportunity to show His glory; but you're going to have to dig deep and explain God setting things up so that He would change His mind. I believe it's possible, because with God all things are possible; just gonna have to work on the explanation.

Here is my best answer.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)

 

[webdog]

Did God know about the 15 additional years before?

No way of us knowing how He interacts with man within and outside of time so my answer is "I don't know". I will say even if He knew, how could there be "additional" years to something already decreed?

 

[jbh28]

No way of us knowing how He interacts with man within and outside of time so my answer is "I don't know". I will say even if He knew, how could there be "additional" years to something already decreed?

Why do you not know? Do you believe God is omniscient?

Right. so let's look at it the best we can.

We have God who gives 15 additional years. We agree that God knew of the additional years.

2 Kings 20:1
"In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, 'Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.'" "​

Isaiah tells Hezekiah a message from God. Isaiah tells Hezekiah that he is going to die. This isn't Isaiah opinion but a direct message from God.


Then Hezekiah prays to the Lord...

2 Kings 20:2-3
"Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying, "Now, O LORD, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly."​

Then the Lord responds...

2 Kings 20:4-6
"And before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah the leader of my people, Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD, and I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake.""​

So we have the Lord telling Hezekiah that he is going to die. Then after Hezekiah's prayer, the Lord adds 15 years.

So, did the Lord "change his mind"? Yes and no. Did God always know that these additional 15 years would be there? Of course he did. In that sense, God didn't change his mind. He always knew it.

To be honest, it's difficult to understand. On one hand we have what looks like God changed his mind. But then on the other hand, if we are going to agree that He already knew that, did He really "change his mind"?

I Samuel 15:29
"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."​

Found this statement from CARM and thought it was well stated.

"...the answer is found in looking at the problem from two perspectives. From the eternal perspective, God does not change His mind since He knew from all eternity what the ultimate decision would be. From the temporal perspective (relative to us), God changes His mind in response to the prayers and pleading of His people."​

- http://carm.org/2-kings-201-6-you-shall-die-and-not-livei-will-add-15-years-your

 

[webdog]

Why do you not know? Do you believe God is omniscient?

Of course I do. I believe even in His omniscience and omnipotence He can, if He so desires, to not use His omnisceince as is evidenced by Christ not knowing the day or the hour of His return (while remaining 100% divine and omniscient.

The fact is none of us know. We can all speculate or use our finite understanding which is bound by space, time and our limited mental faculties to describe how God interacts with His creation, but it is just that...speculation.

We are given immutable truth from the Lord's own perspective in the Hezekiah story that on the surface seems to raise questions about God's omniscience, but since we know that He is, there must be some tension we don't understand.

Facts:
God told Isaiah to deliver the message Hez was going to die. God wasn't kidding, testing Hez, or lying. He stated a fact.
Isaiah delivered this truth.
Hez cried out to God
God heard his prayer (God's own words) and granted "additional" years to Hez.

If God didn't change His mind, he lied to Hezekiah and told Isaiah to lie. There is nothing in the text that would lead us to believe we are supposed to read into the text God said this knowing Hez was going to pray, and it was God's intention all along to grant these "additional" (which would not be additional if they were already worked into Hez's lifespan) years of life. Even if this were the case, God would have lied to Hez to garner a response.

 

[jbh28]

Of course I do. I believe even in His omniscience and omnipotence He can, if He so desires, to not use His omnisceince as is evidenced by Christ not knowing the day or the hour of His return (while remaining 100% divine and omniscient.

The fact is none of us know. We can all speculate or use our finite understanding which is bound by space, time and our limited mental faculties to describe how God interacts with His creation, but it is just that...speculation.

We do know. The Bible tells us that God 1) doesn't change 2) Doesn't change his mind(I Samuel 15:29 ) 3) is omniscient.

We are given immutable truth from the Lord's own perspective in the Hezekiah story that on the surface seems to raise questions about God's omniscience, but since we know that He is, there must be some tension we don't understand.

Facts:
God told Isaiah to deliver the message Hez was going to die. God wasn't kidding, testing Hez, or lying. He stated a fact.
Isaiah delivered this truth.
Hez cried out to God
God heard his prayer (God's own words) and granted "additional" years to Hez.

If God didn't change His mind, he lied to Hezekiah and told Isaiah to lie.

Not at all. I already explained this in my previous post. Go back and read it again and I think you will understand.

There is nothing in the text that would lead us to believe we are supposed to read into the text God said this knowing Hez was going to pray, and it was God's intention all along to grant these "additional" (which would not be additional if they were already worked into Hez's lifespan) years of life. Even if this were the case, God would have lied to Hez to garner a response.

There is the entire Bible. We are to interpret the entire Bible.

God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he was going to die. This is true. If God didn't do anything(heal) Hezekiah would have died. Of course God knew that he was going to heal him and add additional years.(to deny this is to deny the omniscience of God) After Hezekiah prayed, God said he would give him the 15 additional years. (something God already knew about, unless you are going to deny the omniscience of God.)

 

[webdog]

We do know. The Bible tells us that God 1) doesn't change 2) Doesn't change his mind(I Samuel 15:29 ) 3) is omniscient.

...this is all in relation to mankind. God doesn't change like man does...God doesn't change His mind as man does. This needs to be kept in context.

Not at all. I already explained this in my previous post. Go back and read it again and I think you will understand.

I read it again, and I don't see how it's any different in all honesty. If He knew Hez was going to pray and that He was going to grant him additional (this word in itself presents problems to this theory) years...He still did not tell Hez the truth knowing what He knew. Dishonesty is dishonesty.

God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he was going to die. This is true. If God didn't do anything(heal) Hezekiah would have died. Of course God knew that he was going to heal him and add additional years.(to deny this is to deny the omniscience of God) After Hezekiah prayed, God said he would give him the 15 additional years. (something God already knew about, unless you are going to deny the omniscience of God.)

If God knew He was going to heal Him, then God knew Hez didn't really need to get his home in order as he was not going to really die...but still told him just that. That is a lie, plain and simple.

I already said I don't deny God's omniscience, but our feeble minds cannot understand God's omniscience. To state we can puts us on par with God's knowledge, and I'm not going to do that. It's easy to dismiss it using "omniscience", but the problem is we are using OUR understanding of the term.

 

[jbh28]

...this is all in relation to mankind. God doesn't change like man does...God doesn't change His mind as man does. This needs to be kept in context.
I read it again, and I don't see how it's any different in all honesty. If He knew Hez was going to pray and that He was going to grant him additional (this word in itself presents problems to this theory) years...He still did not tell Hez the truth knowing what He knew. Dishonesty is dishonesty.

so then you are saying that God didn't know that He was going to give thim the 15 years?

If God knew He was going to heal Him, then God knew Hez didn't really need to get his home in order as he was not going to really die...but still told him just that. That is a lie, plain and simple.

Then you deny that God knows everything

I already said I don't deny God's omniscience, but our feeble minds cannot understand God's omniscience.

You just did. You said that God didn't know that He was going to give the extra 15 years by healing Hezekiah. It's pretty simple. Either you know everything or you don't

To state we can puts us on par with God's knowledge, and I'm not going to do that. It's easy to dismiss it using "omniscience", but the problem is we are using OUR understanding of the term.

The term is pretty simple. Does God know everything or not? Did God know that He was going to give the 15 years or not?

 

[webdog]

so then you are saying that God didn't know that He was going to give thim the 15 years?

I'm saying we don't know how God chooses to sovereignly act and interact with man in and outside of time.

Then you deny that God knows everything

You are not following. It is a paradox as is plainly seen by Christ who is fully God and omniscient not knowing when He will return. Do you deny this even though Christ Himself said it? How does this fit into your understanding of omniscience?

You just did. You said that God didn't know that He was going to give the extra 15 years by healing Hezekiah. It's pretty simple. Either you know everything or you don't

In OUR understanding of knowledge, you would be correct. I've been trying to say OUR feeble minds cannot wrap around this clear paradox even though Scripture shows it exists.

The term is pretty simple. Does God know everything or not? Did God know that He was going to give the 15 years or not?

So we conform God to our simple terms we can understand? You are comfortable doing that? I'm not and will continue to see the tension given to us in Scripture.

 

[jbh28]

I'm saying we don't know how God chooses to sovereignly act and interact with man in and outside of time.
You are not following. It is a paradox as is plainly seen by Christ who is fully God and omniscient not knowing when He will return. Do you deny this even though Christ Himself said it? How does this fit into your understanding of omniscience?
In OUR understanding of knowledge, you would be correct. I've been trying to say OUR feeble minds cannot wrap around this clear paradox even though Scripture shows it exists.
So we conform God to our simple terms we can understand? You are comfortable doing that? I'm not and will continue to see the tension given to us in Scripture.

It just a simple matter than you are denying that God knows all. I'm not conforming God to anything. I'm only look at it as Scripture teaches. It teaches that God knows all. You either believe it(God knew of the 15 years) or you don't believe it(God didn't know about the 15 years).

And I never said I understood it. I'm just saying that God knew about the 15 additional years.

 

[Skandelon]

It just a simple matter than you are denying that God knows all. I'm not conforming God to anything. I'm only look at it as Scripture teaches. It teaches that God knows all. You either believe it(God knew of the 15 years) or you don't believe it(God didn't know about the 15 years).

And I never said I understood it. I'm just saying that God knew about the 15 additional years.

I don't mean to speak for Webdog, he is more than capable of expressing himself, but what I read him saying was that God in this instance (as in the instance with Christ not knowing of his own return) didn't express himself as if he already knew this information. He didn't reveal it, so why do we feel the need to presume He did? Why not simply take God at his word and accept what he has expressed about himself in any given circumstance?

In other words, why not be okay with "I don't know" sometimes?

 

[jbh28]

I don't mean to speak for Webdog, he is more than capable of expressing himself, but what I read him saying was that God in this instance (as in the instance with Christ not knowing of his own return) didn't express himself as if he already knew this information.

Of course He didn't express Himself as if He knew that.

He didn't reveal it, so why do we feel the need to presume He did?

Because We have all the Scripture. We know that God knows everything from beginning to the end. He knows what we are going to ask or pray before we pray.

Why not simply take God at his word and accept what he has expressed about himself in any given circumstance?

In other words, why not be okay with "I don't know" sometimes?

I'm taking God at his word that He knows everything. God has all knowledge. If you learn something, you didn't have all knowledge. (or at least didn't before you learned the new thing)

My point is simply this. God knew of the 15 years just as he knows everything that is going to happen.

 

[Skandelon]

Of course He didn't express Himself as if He knew that.
Because We have all the Scripture. We know that God knows everything from beginning to the end. He knows what we are going to ask or pray before we pray.

But had Christ not told us that he didn't know when he would return we may have presumed that he did know it, right? My point is that we ONLY know what is revealed and everything else is speculative at best.

I'm taking God at his word that He knows everything. God has all knowledge. If you learn something, you didn't have all knowledge. (or at least didn't before you learned the new thing)

But using the word 'before' or 'after' are linear words that we understand and relate to as finite beings who are bound to time and matter. When we attempt to define, understand and explain God with those terms we will always fall short. It's like a group of 3 or 4 year olds having a discussion with their vocabulary limitations about world wide economics. There is only so much their minds can grasp and their words can express. Imagine if one of them spoke as if they had it all figured out, using his little words and limited understanding. Imagine further how we, as adults, would perceive him. I imagine that is how God probably views us in this discussion. Personally, I'd rather be the kid who is humble enough to realize I don't know much and have much to learn and keep my speculations to myself.

My point is simply this. God knew of the 15 years just as he knows everything that is going to happen.

You might be right, now pass me that play-do.

 

[convicted1]

I hope some one is counting.

Well, Brother, you only should be given a "2/3" post for this one. In all of the others, you gave three tumbs, but on this one, you only gave two.

"Hey, to the one who gives the post counts, can you give Bro. Quantum a "2/3" count for this instead of a "one" for this one???.....just kidding, Brother!!

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

It just a simple matter than you are denying that God knows all. I'm not conforming God to anything. I'm only look at it as Scripture teaches. It teaches that God knows all. You either believe it(God knew of the 15 years) or you don't believe it(God didn't know about the 15 years).

And I never said I understood it. I'm just saying that God knew about the 15 additional years.

How come you have not addressed Christ (God, omniscient) not knowing the time or day of His return? You are talking past me and not taking in what I am saying.

 

[Iconoclast]

God speaks thru human authors in a way we understand.Hank....it looks as if you are bringing God down to human level when you say this.

Did He feel pain and/or was He actually grieved?

In the beginning it was "very good", later He was grieved.In other passages we are told God's wrath was kindled and later subsided (Ninevah).

People use the words "paradox" or "mystery" as their way of coping with what they don't understand.

Franky, FWIW, I presently stand with them.


John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

We are told "grieve not the Holy Spirit".

The plain understanding without a verbal tap-dance is that we have the ability to grieve Almighty God, to "cause" His pleasure with His children to "change" to grief.


HankD