Does God Repent?

[Mark Osgatharp]

Ken Hamilton,

The only thing I am advocating is that there are some decisions that God has left up to man and that those things have not yet been decided. If you interpret that to mean that I do not believe salvation is a passive experience or that God predestinated my sins you are absolutely correct.

Let me say it again so you can be sure that you understand. I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in unconditional election nor unconditional obedience. I do not believe that all things are predestinated. I do believe that God repents in response to man's actions just as the Bible says He does. I am not one bit ashamed to announce these convictions because I can back them up with Scripture.

All I know about "Open Theism" are the few negative things I have read, which, if true, would lead me to believe that Open Theism teaches that God might decide to change His mind about things that He has stated in the Scriptures and that He might decide that He made a mistake somewhere down the line.

If that is a true characterization of Open Theism then I reject it as strongly as I reject Calvinism. But I reserve judgment on the matter since I have never read anything written by those who are charged with teaching Open Theism. For all I know, "Open Theism" may just be a new slander taken up against those who will not bow the knee to John Calvin.

Now that I have answered your question, how about you address my analysis of your misuse of Samuel's statement that God would not repent of having removed Saul from the throne of Israel?

Mark Osgatharp

[ March 24, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

[Artimaeus]

Mark, I am curious, where did you get the idea that repent simply meant to change one's mind? To follow your line of thinking you must come to the conclusion that something unexpected happened and God received some new information that He hadn't considered before and with this new information He will now make a different decision. You are tenaciously holding onto this idea of "changing His mind" and the only way that can be true would be if He was either wrong before He changed His mind or He was wrong after He changed His mind. OR, He wasn't wrong given His limited knowledge before and with the new knowledge He is able to make a better decision.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Artemaeus,

The only reason I am tenaciously holding to the concept that God repents is because the Bible says He does. My conscience will not allow me to redefine "repent," as Helen has done, or to say that the Bible only meant to say that it seemed like God repented when it says that He did repent.

Though I have some opinions about the matter, I am under no obligation to explain how the fact that God repents fits into His foreknowledge. I simply accept what the Bible says about it. Let's see again how clear the Bible is on this matter:

"And the Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto his people."

We see that:

a. God "thought to do" evil to His people. Not "evil" in the sense of wickedness but evil in the sense of calamity.

b. Moses prayed to God and asked Him not to do this.

c. So, "The Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto his people."

I am not at liberty to disbelieve these statements.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Artemaeus,

The only reason I am tenaciously holding to the concept that God repents is because the Bible says He does. My conscience will not allow me to redefine "repent," as Helen has done, or to say that the Bible only meant to say that it seemed like God repented when it says that He did repent.

Though I have some opinions about the matter, I am under no obligation to explain how the fact that God repents fits into His foreknowledge. I simply accept what the Bible says about it. Let's see again how clear the Bible is on this matter:

"And the Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto his people."

We see that:

a. God "thought to do" evil to His people. Not "evil" in the sense of wickedness but evil in the sense of calamity.

b. Moses prayed to God and asked Him not to do this.

c. So, "The Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto his people."

I am not at liberty to disbelieve these statements.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark, I am glad that you tenaciously hold to the belief that God repents because you are right. The Bible says He does. I am glad as well that you understand that the word evil when applied to an act of God does not mean "sinful" because that is contrary to the character of God. Even though the word evil almost always means sinful when applied to humans. Repent is the same thing. When it is applied to God it cannot mean change His mind because that is contrary to the character of God. I am not asking you to "redefine" the word repent only to "define" it. Many words have somewhat different connotations as well as denotations. I could do the same thing you are doing with "repent", I could do that with "evil" and claim that God does evil (sinful things) because the Bible says so. The word repent CAN mean to change the mind, it doesn't HAVE to mean that. It CAN mean a change in action, or, a "sigh" of pity, and several other things. What you have to discover is which definition best fits the charracter of God and in context and not just which shade of meaning is the most popular.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Artimaeus,

You said,

"It CAN mean a change in action, or, a 'sigh' of pity, and several other things. What you have to discover is which definition best fits the charracter of God and in context and not just which shade of meaning is the most popular."

Assign any definition you want to the word "repent" and it still remains that God "THOUGHT TO DO" one thing but then, in response to Moses' prayer, did another. This was not a change of action because no action had been done. It was a change of intent.

And to say it was simply a "sigh" is so ridiculous I don't know why I even addressed it.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Artimaeus,

You said,

"It CAN mean a change in action, or, a 'sigh' of pity, and several other things. What you have to discover is which definition best fits the charracter of God and in context and not just which shade of meaning is the most popular."

Assign any definition you want to the word "repent" and it still remains that God "THOUGHT TO DO" one thing but then, in response to Moses' prayer, did another. This was not a change of action because no action had been done. It was a change of intent.

And to say it was simply a "sigh" is so ridiculous I don't know why I even addressed it.

Mark Osgatharp

Repent as used in Exod 32:14
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
Hebrew Dictionary page 77
5162 Nacham, naw-kham'; a primitive root; properly to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; (italics and bold theirs)

You may say this is wrong but, I would hardly call it ridiculous. I didn't say it was "simply" a sigh.

The reason I spent so much time on "repent" is because you must understand repent and evil first in order to understand "thought to do". I can easily see where this would be troubling. I am agreeing with you and the Bible that this was something that God fully intended to do. Notice what He did not say. "This is something I WILL do and nothing will divert me from doing it." God answers prayers, doesn't He? If God is going to let it rain today and I pray for it to not rain and God answers my prayer and stops it from raining, does that mean that He changed His mind? No, It simple means that God interacts with us, Our prayers have an effect on what God does. He does one thing with our prayers and another thing without them. He hasn't changed His mind, even though to us, it looks like He has. Prior to Moses' prayer God was going to do one thing and after the prayer He did something else. He told us both courses of action so that we could see that prayer does indeed work.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Artimaeus,

Based on what you said in your last post you and I have no substantial disagreement. As you said, God really intended to do one thing and then did another. With that I heartily agree and that, of necessity, means God changed His mind, not arbitrarily, but in response to Moses' prayer.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Paul of Eugene]

OK for the sake of completeness I'm going to mention the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics. This version of our universe postulates that there are, in fact, an infinite number of alternative universes, each of them created when a quantum mechanical event could go one of two or more ways - because in fact it goes every possible way.

Suppose this were true. Then God would be aware of EVERY ONE of those alternative universes. From His eternal perspective, there are at least two scenarios when He addresses Moses - one in which Moses prays this heartfelt prayer, wherein the result is that Israel is spared, and another in which Moses doesn't, and Israel is not spared.

This does not mean that God "changed" his mind; rather that He holds both paths in His mind and both are just as real. We simply are a point of view in the mind of God wherein the other path is not relevant to us.

Its an alternative that preserves the temporal meaning that God seemingly at times changes his mind in response to Man's prayers and ALSO allows for the full foreknowledge of God in all things.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Paul of Eugene,

I think your theory falls into the category of,

"intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind."

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Ah, but do you have any substantive critique?