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Does grace make the flesh profitable?
- Thread starter allinall
- Start date
?? Very good. So God must be the source of all that is good, all the time, right?
As Alistair Begg likes to say..."Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God." I like that.
Were does this put prevenient grace?
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All good does come from God, but man can learn from God what is good, and when we obey him we can do good.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat of the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
God in his word tells us what is good. If we are willing and obedient to God's word, and do those things he tells us to do, then we are able to do good. The good did not originate in us, but we are able to perform it. God would not tell us to learn to do well, to put away evil, and cease from sin unless we were able to do so.
This is why Jesus said;
Jn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Man on his own will do no good. But men can hear God's word and learn from him. If we obey his word we do good. But we deserve no credit, anything we do that is good is wrought in God, he is the cause of any good we might do.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat of the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
God in his word tells us what is good. If we are willing and obedient to God's word, and do those things he tells us to do, then we are able to do good. The good did not originate in us, but we are able to perform it. God would not tell us to learn to do well, to put away evil, and cease from sin unless we were able to do so.
This is why Jesus said;
Jn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Man on his own will do no good. But men can hear God's word and learn from him. If we obey his word we do good. But we deserve no credit, anything we do that is good is wrought in God, he is the cause of any good we might do.
I have no idea.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Grace
The penalty of our sin is death, so there is nothing for us to do to save ourselves we have sinned, so we have to trust in Jesus and His word that those who trust in Him shall be saved. We are saved by grace, because Jesus paid our debt that if we paid it; it would not be salvation at all. This is what faith teaches us through the gift of His word.
How can the flesh profit when Christ condemned sin into it?
Romans 8:
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[Or flesh, for sin] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
I listened to Alistair Begg on the radio many times been blessed and love his accent.
The penalty of our sin is death, so there is nothing for us to do to save ourselves we have sinned, so we have to trust in Jesus and His word that those who trust in Him shall be saved. We are saved by grace, because Jesus paid our debt that if we paid it; it would not be salvation at all. This is what faith teaches us through the gift of His word.
How can the flesh profit when Christ condemned sin into it?
Romans 8:
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[Or flesh, for sin] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
I listened to Alistair Begg on the radio many times been blessed and love his accent.
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convicted1
Guest
Good comes from God, as does grace, which is Jesus crucified on the cross, buried in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights, and resurrected on that third morning, who ascended into heaven, and is now on the right hand of God, making intercessions unto the Father for us, when we stumble. Whew, that's a long sentence, ain't it?
Now, no amount of salvation will make our flesh profitable unto God. It has come from the ground that God cursed. But through salvation, when He comes to get His children, our new spiritual flesh will be "good", meaning it will have underwent a change from natural flesh, to spiritual flesh. The soul has been made new by the blood of Jesus, but our bodies in their present state, hasn't been changed. So, no, our flesh is not "profitable".
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Tom Butler
New Member
Well, let's see here. When I was a kid, my mother and daddy told me what was good and what was bad. They reinforced their ideas of what was bad by a little pat on the back, quite often and quite low.
When I was introduced to the scriptures and was taught about God, it didn't take long to learn what God said was good and bad. (Remember that old gospel song, "God's Gonna Get You for That?") So I was interested in keeping both God and my parents off my back.
Then, came the teaching about sin, about one's relationship to God, Heaven and Hell, and the need for salvation. Coupled with that was the teaching that one can't be good enough to be saved--that when God saves us, he does it for his Son's sake. Pretty heavy stuff for a nine-year-old. I didn't understand everything until I got older.
All I knew was that I was a sinner, and my only hope was to repent of sin and trust Christ for salvation. When God saved me, he also gave me changed desires. There is quite a difference in wanting to please God and wanting to keep him off your back.
I'm reminded of something one of my pastors used to say. "Do you know how to get to be good? Practice."
When I was introduced to the scriptures and was taught about God, it didn't take long to learn what God said was good and bad. (Remember that old gospel song, "God's Gonna Get You for That?") So I was interested in keeping both God and my parents off my back.
Then, came the teaching about sin, about one's relationship to God, Heaven and Hell, and the need for salvation. Coupled with that was the teaching that one can't be good enough to be saved--that when God saves us, he does it for his Son's sake. Pretty heavy stuff for a nine-year-old. I didn't understand everything until I got older.
All I knew was that I was a sinner, and my only hope was to repent of sin and trust Christ for salvation. When God saved me, he also gave me changed desires. There is quite a difference in wanting to please God and wanting to keep him off your back.
I'm reminded of something one of my pastors used to say. "Do you know how to get to be good? Practice."
Are you saying you never wanted to please God or your parents out of love? That was not my attitude, even before I heard the gospel I believed in God and wanted to please him, as well as my parents.
I don't know. Who are these people? Our righteousness comes from Christ, not ourselves.
Maybe those people are just....stupid? :laugh:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Better than whom
I can't speak for everyone else. I do not think that I am better than anyone else or good. I came to Jesus when He called because I know I am not better than anyone else. I see myself as the worst of sinners, that there is so many more worthy than me.
I have to depend on Jesus Christ for salvation, that all of us have to do that even if we deny the process or not.
I was dead in my sins, then through the word of life that Jesus said brought before me life and death and wanted me to chose life and live. It did not incline my heart to believe it brought before me two roads. To believe in Jesus and be saved or not and continue in condemnation. It is God choice to save sinners who trust in Jesus not my choice, but His.
It isn’t my will that believers be saved but His will. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so if I walked away it wasn’t because God didn’t want to save me.
The word of life will continue to work on us knocking on our heart to let Him in, until we just walk away and don’t return, without the word of life in us accepting it we are dead with no life. When men walk away it is because of their own evil desire, not the desire of God and God will give them over to it.
Now when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself, to place before them the two roads. It is amazing men who believe they can be regenerated without the word of life washing us.
He isn't trying to save our flesh, but our soul, for the salvation of our soul is the goal.
I can't speak for everyone else. I do not think that I am better than anyone else or good. I came to Jesus when He called because I know I am not better than anyone else. I see myself as the worst of sinners, that there is so many more worthy than me.
I have to depend on Jesus Christ for salvation, that all of us have to do that even if we deny the process or not.
I was dead in my sins, then through the word of life that Jesus said brought before me life and death and wanted me to chose life and live. It did not incline my heart to believe it brought before me two roads. To believe in Jesus and be saved or not and continue in condemnation. It is God choice to save sinners who trust in Jesus not my choice, but His.
It isn’t my will that believers be saved but His will. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so if I walked away it wasn’t because God didn’t want to save me.
The word of life will continue to work on us knocking on our heart to let Him in, until we just walk away and don’t return, without the word of life in us accepting it we are dead with no life. When men walk away it is because of their own evil desire, not the desire of God and God will give them over to it.
Now when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself, to place before them the two roads. It is amazing men who believe they can be regenerated without the word of life washing us.
He isn't trying to save our flesh, but our soul, for the salvation of our soul is the goal.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Well, I did want to please my parents because when I was good they were pleased, and when I wasn't they weren't pleased at all. So some of it was to keep them from being displeased.
I was taught to love God and obey him, but honestly, my earliest perceptions of God were that Jesus loves me, but don't mess with God.
The idea that I should please my parents out of love came later. Same idea about desiring to please God out of love for him also came later. I think my thinking changed about the time the Lord saved me, at age 9.
Prevenient grace, at least these days, basically says that God applied an equal amount of grace on all men. That the difference between those who came to faith and those who did not is in the individuals themselves. Which would be odd because all good is sourced in God. What they are basically saying by prevenient grace is that the flesh is made profitable.
"Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous than they were? If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast. Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God? If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness. If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn’t God give the same gift to everybody?
Perhaps it wasn’t because you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent. Why are you more intelligent? Because you study more (which really means you are more righteous)? Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?
To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers. They see the implied arrogance in them. Rather they are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.” That certainly sounds more humble. But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?"
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2..._prevenien.php
You would say..."There go I but for ..."
Everyone says that all good is sourced in God, but do they really mean it? Humanism has a way of hiding in our theology. This thread is going to confront it if it's there.
Dave
"Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous than they were? If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast. Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God? If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness. If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn’t God give the same gift to everybody?
Perhaps it wasn’t because you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent. Why are you more intelligent? Because you study more (which really means you are more righteous)? Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?
To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers. They see the implied arrogance in them. Rather they are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.” That certainly sounds more humble. But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?"
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2..._prevenien.php
You would say..."There go I but for ..."
Everyone says that all good is sourced in God, but do they really mean it? Humanism has a way of hiding in our theology. This thread is going to confront it if it's there.
Dave
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Boast in Christ
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]
2 Corinthians 10:
12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13 We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. 14 We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ. 15 Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand, 16 so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you. For we do not want to boast about work already done in someone else’s territory. 17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[Jer. 9:24] 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.
Philippians 2:
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[Deut. 32:5] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]
2 Corinthians 10:
12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13 We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. 14 We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ. 15 Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand, 16 so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you. For we do not want to boast about work already done in someone else’s territory. 17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[Jer. 9:24] 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.
Philippians 2:
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[Deut. 32:5] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
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Well, Jesus himself said there is a difference between those who come to him and those who refuse.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Those that love darkness and do evil do not come to the light. Those that do truth come to the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God.
The person who loves his sin will not come to Christ. Those who hear the word of God and are convicted by the Spirit will come to Christ. These persons see that all good comes from God (wrought in God).
It is not nearly as complicated as some wish to make it, those who do not believe are those who love and prefer their sin over Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Some men love their sin, it is that simple. Why does a criminal break into homes and steal or rob a bank? Because it is much easier to steal from others than it is to work and earn through honest labor. Why do men drink or use drugs? Because it makes them feel good, it gives them pleasure. Why do men commit fornication? Because it makes them feel good, it gives them pleasure. Why do the rich oppress the poor? Because they enjoy the power and pleasure of wealth.
These folks do not want to give up their sin, they enjoy it.
Other folks view sin differently, they can see how harmful it is. They do not enjoy their sin, they are ashamed of themselves. These persons will gladly come to Jesus to have their sins forgiven.
So, you can say what you will, Jesus showed there is a difference between those who come to him and those who did not, and he explained why.
Asking questions that cannot be answered, such as why does one man love sin, and why does another hate his sin proves nothing. All we can do is observe that it is a fact whether we understand it or not. Some folks just plain love sin and are not willing to give it up no matter what. Is that dumb? Yes, but some folks choose to be dumb.
What, or rather Who is the "Root" cause of that difference that you speak of?
Who makes you differ from another? (1 Cor. 4:7)
What do you have that you did not receive? (1 Cor. 4:7)
"There go I but for..."
But they can be answered, and have been answered in many ways in God's Word. It's everywhere in scripture. Do these things offend you?
Dave
Why did you fail to provide the answers? Anybody can make such statements, how about scripture to back it up. I provided scripture to support my view, Jesus said those that do evil hate the light and will not come to it lest their deeds be reproved, but those that doeth truth cometh to the light. Jesus is the light, and no one is saved till they come to the light (Jesus), yet this verse shows people doing truth BEFORE coming to the light.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Change
What I have learned the only person I can change is myself. If people do change because of my action it is because they want to, not because of me controlling them. The more I try to change others and force them in my direction the further opposite direction they go. The hard thing to do is to give up and let God do the work in us. In other words we still try to change our lives to be better and if we fail don't give up on God.
Don't let other people bad in them or bad actions toward you or to God, make you a bitter person, because you are letting them control you.
What I have learned the only person I can change is myself. If people do change because of my action it is because they want to, not because of me controlling them. The more I try to change others and force them in my direction the further opposite direction they go. The hard thing to do is to give up and let God do the work in us. In other words we still try to change our lives to be better and if we fail don't give up on God.
Don't let other people bad in them or bad actions toward you or to God, make you a bitter person, because you are letting them control you.