Does it Matter at all what the Age of the Earth is?

[Silverhair]

@Ben1445 & @360watt you both hold to the YEC thus you hold that the earth is only approx. 6000 years old.

Early Human Settlements (Around 10,000 Years Ago)

Çatalhöyük: A very large Neolithic proto-city in Turkey that dates back roughly 9,500 years.

Jericho: One of the world's oldest continuously inhabited towns, with large stone walls and towers dating back over 10,000 years

Göbekli Tepe: A massive stone temple site in modern-day Turkey built around 11,500 years ago by hunter-gatherers.

When skeptic's ask about these or the distance to the nearest star what is your answer?

 

[Ben1445]

I have said more than once that whether one holds to the OEC, YEC, Gap or what ever does not matter to me. So I am not bothered but you seem to be quite insistent that your view is correct. But as you know others think their view is correct and they will use the same scripture to support it just as you do.

It’s funny that you say that because you don’t use Exodus 20 as I have. It appears that you avoid it. So your lackluster argument for everyone using the same Scripture is empty.

But as I said before there is no indication of time in verse two so that is why you have the various views.

There is every indication of time in Exodus 20. I spelled it out carefully for you but you really like to not see what you don’t want to.

What can we know for sure from scripture:

Without looking in Exodus…

Vs 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Vs 2 The earth was formless and void...the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
Vss 3-31 six days of creation
Gen 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

What we cannot know is how long God was moving over the face of the waters before He spoke the words "Let there be light"

The Spirit of God moving on the face of the waters is not like dangling your feet in the water on a lazy afternoon of indecision.
It indicates that God took action. It is saying that God began to do something to foundations He had laid.

My trust in God is not based on what He did in six days but what He did in vs 1.

Not sure what that means.

My position may not satisfy you but it is what it is.

You may disagree with me, and that’s okay. But you keep saying “we can’t know” while ignoring what else the Bible says about it.

I have to ask what do you think I am making difficult?

I haven’t figured out why you can’t search the Scripture.
Explain creation from Genesis filtered through Exodus 20 where it relates the creation of the universe. Or continue to be willingly ignorant of what else the Bible says about the beginning and don’t.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445 & @360watt you both hold to the YEC thus you hold that the earth is only approx. 6000 years old.

Early Human Settlements (Around 10,000 Years Ago)

Çatalhöyük: A very large Neolithic proto-city in Turkey that dates back roughly 9,500 years.

Well, the last time I heard, the manufacturer date code on this one was smudged and they are guessing at best.

Jericho: One of the world's oldest continuously inhabited towns, with large stone walls and towers dating back over 10,000 years

And with this one, it is hard to argue with their history books where the founders say the city was founded in the year 10,972 BC.

Göbekli Tepe: A massive stone temple site in modern-day Turkey built around 11,500 years ago by hunter-gatherers.

So the people who spoke by inspiration of God made mistakes and recorded the data incorrectly. Adam was a caveman who was not even up to the level of hunter-gatherer. (By the way, your food magically finds its way to your mouth, or must you do something gathering? There are no more hunters? Farmers don’t gather? These terms for historical human beings are demeaning.)

When skeptic's ask about these or the distance to the nearest star what is your answer?

This is a tough one because if we had a God who could make light, I could answer it with no problem, but considering that you have ruled out that your God can, I have no answer for you. I cannot help a “believing” unbeliever.

I don’t usually discuss things like this with a “skeptic” defined as an unbeliever.

Proverbs 9:7
He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

Proverbs 14:6
A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not:
but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.


To the “believing” skeptic (there is an oxymoron), I can only ask why they don’t believe what God said He did.

 

[Ben1445]

Is creation itself bound to the natural, or can we recognize that it is supernatural?

 

[Silverhair]

It’s funny that you say that because you don’t use Exodus 20 as I have. It appears that you avoid it. So your lackluster argument for everyone using the same Scripture is empty.

@Ben1445 when have I disagreed with Gen 1:3-31? Or with Exo 20:11?

There is every indication of time in Exodus 20. I spelled it out carefully for you but you really like to not see what you don’t want to.

Gen 1:3-31 and Exo 20:11 are not the issue Ben.

Without looking in Exodus…

I have looked at Exo 20:11 and it still does not deal with Gen 1:2

The Spirit of God moving on the face of the waters is not like dangling your feet in the water on a lazy afternoon of indecision.
It indicates that God took action. It is saying that God began to do something to foundations He had laid.

Please show me the time element in these words

Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Not sure what that means.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It should be obvious as to what those words mean.

Whether He tool six days or six billion it does not change the reality that there was nothing and then there was.

You may disagree with me, and that’s okay. But you keep saying “we can’t know” while ignoring what else the Bible says about it.

What we can't know is what time elapsed in vs 2. I am not ignoring the rest of scripture but you are reading into vs 2 what you need to find.

I haven’t figured out why you can’t search the Scripture.
Explain creation from Genesis filtered through Exodus 20 where it relates the creation of the universe. Or continue to be willingly ignorant of what else the Bible says about the beginning and don’t.

How many times must I say God created in six days just as Gen 1:3-31 says. Where the disagreement comes in is in how you see vs 2. Vs 2 does not give any indication of time and you say it does.

Gen 1:1 statement, God created the heavens and the earth
Gen 1:2 statements, earth was formless and void & Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters

Neither has any indication of time. For that we have to look to Gen 1:3-31.

We have no idea how long the earth was formless and void or how long Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Even Exo 20:11 does not help you in this as it just states:
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested.

And I have not disagreed with that have I.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, the last time I heard, the manufacturer date code on this one was smudged and they are guessing at best.


And with this one, it is hard to argue with their history books where the founders say the city was founded in the year 10,972 BC.


So the people who spoke by inspiration of God made mistakes and recorded the data incorrectly. Adam was a caveman who was not even up to the level of hunter-gatherer. (By the way, your food magically finds its way to your mouth, or must you do something gathering? There are no more hunters? Farmers don’t gather? These terms for historical human beings are demeaning.)


This is a tough one because if we had a God who could make light, I could answer it with no problem, but considering that you have ruled out that your God can, I have no answer for you. I cannot help a “believing” unbeliever.

I don’t usually discuss things like this with a “skeptic” defined as an unbeliever.

Proverbs 9:7
He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

Proverbs 14:6
A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not:
but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.


To the “believing” skeptic (there is an oxymoron), I can only ask why they don’t believe what God said He did.

Ben have you actually read and understood what I have posted? Have I said that God did not create in six days? Creation is stated clearly in Gen 1:3-31. I have asked you more than once where you see any time expressed in vs 2 and you do not give any answer.

Why would you not answer the questions of a skeptic, an unbeliever? Have you never encountered someone that had serious questions re creation?

Ben all you are doing is deflecting as it seems you do not have good answers.

I have used scripture to point out the problems with YEC view. Gen 1:2 is the stumbling block to which you cannot provide a good answer.

So your answer for the skeptic re the distance of stars is well God just wanted to fool everybody. That's a rather lame answer Ben.

 

[Silverhair]

Is creation itself bound to the natural, or can we recognize that it is supernatural?

Of course creation is supernatural.

What do you think I have been saying all along?

I have just been pointing out flaws as I see them in the YEC view.

 

[360watt]

@Ben1445 & @360watt you both hold to the YEC thus you hold that the earth is only approx. 6000 years old.

Early Human Settlements (Around 10,000 Years Ago)

Çatalhöyük: A very large Neolithic proto-city in Turkey that dates back roughly 9,500 years.

Jericho: One of the world's oldest continuously inhabited towns, with large stone walls and towers dating back over 10,000 years

Göbekli Tepe: A massive stone temple site in modern-day Turkey built around 11,500 years ago by hunter-gatherers.

When skeptic's ask about these or the distance to the nearest star what is your answer?

I would go for an age between 6 and 10 thousand years rather than strictly 6,000.

Also, I wonder where these figures come from, since I thought human recorded history doesn't go back that far.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben have you actually read and understood what I have posted? Have I said that God did not create in six days? Creation is stated clearly in Gen 1:3-31. I have asked you more than once where you see any time expressed in vs 2 and you do not give any answer.

Why would you not answer the questions of a skeptic, an unbeliever? Have you never encountered someone that had serious questions re creation?

Ben all you are doing is deflecting as it seems you do not have good answers.

I have used scripture to point out the problems with YEC view. Gen 1:2 is the stumbling block to which you cannot provide a good answer.

So your answer for the skeptic re the distance of stars is well God just wanted to fool everybody. That's a rather lame answer Ben.

You have not listened to anything I said. There is no point in continuing.
You asked me to show you. I did. You make like I said nothing.
One day what I have said might register if you have actually read anything that I have said.

 

[Ben1445]

Of course creation is supernatural.

What do you think I have been saying all along?

I have just been pointing out flaws as I see them in the YEC view.

It’s not a flaw if God can make the light already shining where it would in the future of light.
Why would God create something that is not fully functioning?

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445 when have I disagreed with Gen 1:3-31? Or with Exo 20:11?

Exodus says the heaven, earth, and sea was made in the six days. You have said before the six days began.

Gen 1:3-31 and Exo 20:11 are not the issue Ben.

They really are but you are determined not to hear me.

I have looked at Exo 20:11 and it still does not deal with Gen 1:2

Well, I suppose having it spelled out point by point has done nothing to help you understand what I am saying. I should give you up as an internet troll, but God made, per Exodus 20:11 the heaven, earth, and sea, within the six days of creation.
That means that the sea was not there before day one to move on.
The earth came at the beginning of the six days because it was made within the six days.
Heaven/ the universe, space was madeat the beginning of day one because it was made within the six days of Exodus 20:11.

I can’t say it any more plainly than that.

Please show me the time element in these words

Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

The waters are what God made within the six days per Exodus.
The earth was made within the six days per Exodus.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It should be obvious as to what those words mean.

That is not what you said that I didn’t understand. I know what Genesis 1:1 means.

I have a much harder time understanding you sometimes.

Whether He tool six days or six billion it does not change the reality that there was nothing and then there was.

I understand your point but it’s not that hard to get past that point.

What we can't know is what time elapsed in vs 2. I am not ignoring the rest of scripture but you are reading into vs 2 what you need to find.

Not at all. A little logic goes a long way.

How many times must I say God created in six days just as Gen 1:3-31 says. Where the disagreement comes in is in how you see vs 2. Vs 2 does not give any indication of time and you say it does.

The things God made in the six days are what you are saying existed before the six days began.

Gen 1:1 statement, God created the heavens and the earth
Gen 1:2 statements, earth was formless and void & Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters

Neither has any indication of time. For that we have to look to Gen 1:3-31.

We have no idea how long the earth was formless and void or how long Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Even Exo 20:11 does not help you in this as it just states:
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested.

And I have not disagreed with that have I.

Yes you have. You have placed the creation that was made within the six days of Exodus outside of the same six days described in Genesis. Very poor logic.

And there are people who have presented me much better arguments to my position than you. I have waited for anything beside “I agree with Scripture too.” But I suppose that is the best argument you have.

 

[Silverhair]

You have not listened to anything I said. There is no point in continuing.
You asked me to show you. I did. You make like I said nothing.
One day what I have said might register if you have actually read anything that I have said.

I have read what you posted but just because you post it does not make it true.

But then again you have not listened to anything that I have posted so I could say the same thing to you that it might someday register what I have said.

 

[Silverhair]

It’s not a flaw if God can make the light already shining where it would in the future of light.
Why would God create something that is not fully functioning?

Now you are just grasping at straws. Who said light is not fully functioning.

But I do not have to make up things to support a view as you are doing.

 

[Salty]

OK ARE WE AT THE POINT TO WHERE WE NEED TO AGREE TO DISAGREE!

 

[Silverhair]

Exodus says the heaven, earth, and sea was made in the six days. You have said before the six days began.

Just as Gen 1:3-31 says but that still does not alter the reality of Gen 1:2.

They really are but you are determined not to hear me.

I have heard you. You hold to a YEC view. But you stll have not dealt with Gen 1:2

Well, I suppose having it spelled out point by point has done nothing to help you understand what I am saying. I should give you up as an internet troll, but God made, per Exodus 20:11 the heaven, earth, and sea, within the six days of creation.
That means that the sea was not there before day one to move on.
The earth came at the beginning of the six days because it was made within the six days.
Heaven/ the universe, space was madeat the beginning of day one because it was made within the six days of Exodus 20:11.

I can’t say it any more plainly than that.

I have not denied creation as we see it in Gen 1:3-31 but you still have not dealt with Gen 1:2.

It seems you do not have an answer so you just dance around it.

The waters are what God made within the six days per Exodus.
The earth was made within the six days per Exodus.

Still not dealing with the elephant in the room are you. Gen 1:2 just will not work with your YEC view.

That is not what you said that I didn’t understand. I know what Genesis 1:1 means.

I have a much harder time understanding you sometimes.

Perhaps you should just go read again what I have said.

You keep showing your blind spot.

I understand your point but it’s not that hard to get past that point.

If it is not that hard to get past that point then why do you have such a hard time doing it?

Not at all. A little logic goes a long way.

But I am not seeing any logic coming from you on this. You continue to ignore Gen 1:2

The things God made in the six days are what you are saying existed before the six days began.

No actually I am not but that is what you want me to say.

This is what the bible says

Gen 1:1 statement, God created the heavens and the earth
Gen 1:2 statements, earth was formless and void & Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters

Neither has any indication of time. For that we have to look to Gen 1:3-31.

We have no idea how long the earth was formless and void or how long Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Even Exo 20:11 does not help you in this as it just states:
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested.

Yes you have. You have placed the creation that was made within the six days of Exodus outside of the same six days described in Genesis. Very poor logic.

And there are people who have presented me much better arguments to my position than you. I have waited for anything beside “I agree with Scripture too.” But I suppose that is the best argument you have.

Gen 1:3-31 - Gen 2:2 is the as we see in Exo 20:9-10

But that still does not deal with Gen 1:2 as much as you would like it to.

If you do not think the word of God is the best argument then what do you think is?

 

[Silverhair]

OK ARE WE AT THE POINT TO WHERE WE NEED TO AGREE TO DISAGREE!

We both agree that God created we just do not agree on Gen 1:2.

But then again better men than us have disagreed on this for quite a while.

 

[Mike B]

per Exodus 20:11 the heaven, earth, and sea, within the six days of creation.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh
day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I can not disagree with plain speaking Scripture, even if I will always struggle with it.

 

[Salty]

OK ARE WE AT THE POINT TO WHERE WE NEED TO AGREE TO DISAGREE!

SIX HOUR WARNING
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1000 GMT 4 AM EDT (Wed) , 1 AM PDT (Wed)

 

[Ben1445]

But you stll have not dealt with Gen 1:2

The water, according to Exodus 20:11 was made within the 6days of creation.
So the Spirit of God moving on the face of the water must have happened after the 6days began.

 

[Ben1445]

Still not dealing with the elephant in the room are you. Gen 1:2 just will not work with your YEC view.

That could just as easily have happened 6,000-10,000 years ago. You haven’t explained why you think that it takes God so long to move on the face of the water.

It absolutely can work within a YEC view.