Does it matter why a person "comes to Christ" or just that a person comes???

[HeirofSalvation]

So, according to Tim and others the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was noting but sensationalism and the results false because people wanted to escape the fires of hell. I guess we shouldn't preach that the "penalty of sin is death(ie. hell, eternal separation from God)." Nor should we preach "that unless you repent that you will perish (hell, eternal death, eternal separation from God)." Or we shouldn't warn by preaching, "what good does it profit a man to gain the whole world only to forfeit his soul (hell, eternal death, etc.)." Certainly we are not preaching or selling fire insurance but I know that the reality of hell is one tool that Jesus used to get people's attention and in sharing the gospel today the reality of the Lake of Fire should not be neglected.

:applause::thumbsup:

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

I just wanted my fire insurance. I was a lost sinner, and in no way concerned about "doing right" or "pleasing God" or anything else. All I wanted was what would save my skin. There's STILL no better reason IMO to become saved but to flee the wrath to come. I knew:
1.) I was a sinner and I was gonna burn for it
2.) I would be saved from the penalty of my sin if I accepted Christ
3.) I didn't love God...I loved the idea of preserving my wretched hide
4.) I acted the only way un-regenerate men act.....selfishly.
5.) I asked God to save my skin
6.) He saved my wretched filthy skin

6.) OVER TIME...as the Spirit began the process of sanctification... I began to want to please God for the more "right" reasons. I called upon him because I LOVED him....But still, I love him because he first loved me.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

I doubt there is major disagreement here by those who voted "NO" and "YES"...I think the poll question (and it was admitted as much) wasn't very precise. I'm not even strictly speaking disagreeing with Greektim's sentiments....I understand where he is coming from...and I understand the frustration over false conversions. There's probably a better way to phrase this discussion than a yes/no option.

 

[MB]

The grace of God is the fountain head of our salvation, by grace our ye saved. Faith is the work of God in us, it is the gift of God. Grace is the first and last moving cause of salvation, and faith, important as it is, is only an important part of the machinery which grace employs. Faith occupies the position of a channel or conduit-pipe. Grace is the fountain and the stream: faith is the aqueduct along which the flood of mercy flows down to refresh the thirsty sons of me. We must not look to faith as to exalt it above the divine source of all blessing which lies in the grace of God. Never make a christ out of faith, nor think of it as if it were the independent source of your salvation. Our life is found in looking unto Jesus, not looking unto our own faith. The peace within the soul is not derived from the contemplation of our own faith, but it comes to us from him who is our peace, the hem of whose garment faith touches, and virtue comes out of him into the soul.

Never the less with out faith there can be no grace. Faith comes first because with out faith that important part of the machinery is missing and grace cannot get through.
MB

 

[Bronconagurski]

Never the less with out faith there can be no grace. Faith comes first because with out faith that important part of the machinery is missing and grace cannot get through.
MB

The scripture has it right, in chronological order: Ephesians 2:8 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Without God's grace of sending His own Son to die, and the Father drawing you thru the Holy Spirit and the Word, you would never have had faith. Grace did not come after faith, no way.

 

[MB]

The scripture has it right, in chronological order: Ephesians 2:8 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Without God's grace of sending His own Son to die, and the Father drawing you thru the Holy Spirit and the Word, you would never have had faith. Grace did not come after faith, no way.

Can you tell me where the Bible says that faith came by grace? Can you tell me where it says God sent His son by grace. Or, that Christ died by grace. You see what you post sounds beautiful to men yet it just isn't true. The doctrines of men do not impress me. Besides if it took grace for everything you would be placing grace above God Him Self. It is the act of grace we are saved by. The word is a verb meaning favor.
John 3:16 Tells us why God sent His Son to die. He did it because He LOVED the world. Not just the elect or the Calvinist but everyone in the whole world.
All encompassing isn't it.
MB

 

[Bronconagurski]

Can you tell me where the Bible says that faith came by grace? Can you tell me where it says God sent His son by grace. Or, that Christ died by grace. You see what you post sounds beautiful to men yet it just isn't true. The doctrines of men do not impress me. Besides if it took grace for everything you would be placing grace above God Him Self. It is the act of grace we are saved by. The word is a verb meaning favor.
John 3:16 Tells us why God sent His Son to die. He did it because He LOVED the world. Not just the elect or the Calvinist but everyone in the whole world.
All encompassing isn't it.
MB

Jesus coming was also an act of grace. Come on, this is Theology 101-

2 Corinthians 8:9 (HCSB)
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: Though He was rich, for your sake He became poor, so that by His poverty you might become rich.

This gift of grace was given before the world began:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Jesus' death was by the grace of God:

Hebrews 2:9 (ESV)
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

[Arbo]

Does it matter why a person "comes to Christ" or just that a person comes???

People are individuals who are wired differently. Some are motivated by reward, others the whip. What matters is the result. My opinion.

 

[convicted1]

Do it really matter how someone comes to Chirst? Yessiree it does. There were those who followed Him, seeking healing, and some who just wanted fed. Guess which ones were truly satisfied when they left this world.

 

[convicted1]

Here are some more examples that it does, indeed, matter how one comes to Christ:

Luke 18-9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

One had what I call a "superiority complex"(Pharisee), because he was resting on the basis that he was good enough just because he was birthed a Jew, therefore, he was worthy. Remember, Jesus said this:

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The publican had an "inferiority complex" in that he felt unworthy, and would not even lift up his head. He knew that he needed to be led to the "Rock that is higher than I".

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So, in summation, no one can come "willy-nilly" to God, but they must be first drawn, given the faith to believe, put that gift of faith to action, call out to Him with a broken heart, and He will save them.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Do it really matter how someone comes to Chirst? Yessiree it does. There were those who followed Him, seeking healing, and some who just wanted fed. Guess which ones were truly satisfied when they left this world.

I guess I took "come to Christ" different than you. I took it to mean salvation in the OP. If it doesn't, then I agree with you. If it does, then how God got our attention does not matter.

 

[convicted1]

I guess I took "come to Christ" different than you. I took it to mean salvation in the OP. If it doesn't, then I agree with you. If it does, then how God got our attention does not matter.

Personally, I believe God gets our attention through the Gospel, whether through someone preaching it, discussing it, or God dealing with someone on an individual basis. What I mean by that last is that God can deal with someone directly. Take for instance some who are in remote places, and maybe for years, no one has come to them. God can deal with them in a "one-on-one" basis, showing them who He is, and then later on, send someone to expound on what He revealed to them.

 

[Greektim]

So, according to Tim and others the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was noting but sensationalism and the results false because people wanted to escape the fires of hell. I guess we shouldn't preach that the "penalty of sin is death(ie. hell, eternal separation from God)." Nor should we preach "that unless you repent that you will perish (hell, eternal death, eternal separation from God)." Or we shouldn't warn by preaching, "what good does it profit a man to gain the whole world only to forfeit his soul (hell, eternal death, etc.)." Certainly we are not preaching or selling fire insurance but I know that the reality of hell is one tool that Jesus used to get people's attention and in sharing the gospel today the reality of the Lake of Fire should not be neglected.

I'm not saying to avoid those issues. I am saying that they are not the motivating factors. Preaching sin and hell is only reasonable when comparing the glory of God and how sin belittles God's glory and hell affirms his glory via justice and holiness. So even then, the focus is God not the personal benefits of what we get out of salvation (or don't get).

 

[HankD]

So, according to Tim and others the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was noting but sensationalism and the results false because people wanted to escape the fires of hell. I guess we shouldn't preach that the "penalty of sin is death(ie. hell, eternal separation from God)." Nor should we preach "that unless you repent that you will perish (hell, eternal death, eternal separation from God)." Or we shouldn't warn by preaching, "what good does it profit a man to gain the whole world only to forfeit his soul (hell, eternal death, etc.)." Certainly we are not preaching or selling fire insurance but I know that the reality of hell is one tool that Jesus used to get people's attention and in sharing the gospel today the reality of the Lake of Fire should not be neglected.

That's a tried and true method

Jonah 3

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.​

HankD

 

[MB]

Jesus coming was also an act of grace. Come on, this is Theology 101-

2 Corinthians 8:9 (HCSB)
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: Though He was rich, for your sake He became poor, so that by His poverty you might become rich.

This gift of grace was given before the world began:

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Jesus' death was by the grace of God:

Hebrews 2:9 (ESV)
9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Yes it took grace for Christ to die although it was Christ who received it not us. Christ has pure faith. and He had it first. He knew that He would rise from the grave in just three days. These graces are not applied to us until we have faith. His dying for our sins are not applied to us until we have faith. there fore if you desire grace then you had better have faith, because faith always comes first.
MB

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I'm not saying to avoid those issues. I am saying that they are not the motivating factors. Preaching sin and hell is only reasonable when comparing the glory of God and how sin belittles God's glory and hell affirms his glory via justice and holiness. So even then, the focus is God not the personal benefits of what we get out of salvation (or don't get).

I am sure that I am mis-understanding your intent with this post, but frankly, I don't get it...

Unregenerate sinners don't give a flip about God's glory. Unregenerate men don't care about vindicating God's justice....

Unregenerate sinners come to Christ largely because of (as you said)

the personal benefits of what we get out of salvation

I meant to convey personally, that I ABSOLUTELY came for one reason only....I wanted my "fire insurance"....I wanted the "personal benefits". I didn't care about affirming God's glory...I cared about my wretched hide.
My reasons were self-preservational, My reasons were selfish, my purpose was to "flee the wrath to come"...
I was lethally bitten by a Serpent, and someone told me that if I looked to a bronze serpent on a pole in the wilderness, than I would not die (metaphorically speaking)..........so......I looked.
The Spirit-induced FEAR of the "wrath to come" is a Scripturally viable reason to come to Christ.
The fear of hell is a Scripturally valid reason to repent.

The "FEAR" of the Lord...is the "Beginning" of wisdom, not it's ultimate end.

I came to Christ because I feared, pure and simple. I responded in faith, because I truly believed that Christ's blood would wash away my sins and preserve me from the wrath to come.

How is this NOT a valid reason to come to Christ???
I know that we all tend to wish that our reasoning were more noble....but, I know mine wasn't, and, as we grow in grace, we love Christ, and we love God for better and more noble reasons.

As Christ begins the process of Sanctification...we begin to be concerned about vindicating God's holiness against sin. As we grow in grace we begin to see things differently and we desire to love God for who he is and not merely for what he has done for us.

But don't expect the "Totally Depraved" to give a flip about doing God a good turn, they don't. I didn't.
I think that somehow, those of us on this thread are speaking past one another somehow...I may be missing your points entirely Greek. If so, then I apologize.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I'm not saying to avoid those issues. I am saying that they are not the motivating factors.

For my part.........they were the motivating factors.
I think they are wonderfully convincing and motivating factors.

I'm a proud man.........and God's telling me that he would burn me in hell eternally lest I repent had a humbling factor....so.....I wussed-out, took the easy route, let go my pride for a second and took the amnesty as offered.

In my mind......If Jesus Christ was fool enough to be tortured and die for me and take that punishment I deserved upon himself....well, that was his problem. I wouldn't have done it. But I took it and ran with it. It was up to him to decide whether it was worth it or not.

 

[salzer mtn]

Yes it took grace for Christ to die although it was Christ who received it not us. Christ has pure faith. and He had it first. He knew that He would rise from the grave in just three days. These graces are not applied to us until we have faith. His dying for our sins are not applied to us until we have faith. there fore if you desire grace then you had better have faith, because faith always comes first.
MB

The problem is, how can we put forth faith when we don't have faith? In 11 Thess 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. Faith is not a natural fruit of the flesh, read Gal 5:19-21. Faith is not a word, it is a positive action. You either have faith or you don't. A man that has faith is a saved man regardless of how little or large his faith is. A man that has no faith is a lost man. How can you call on a lost man to have faith when he is dead in trespasses and sin, Jer 13:23 Can a Ethioian change his skin, or the leoperd his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. a spiritual dead man is without life, he don't have the ability to have faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22. A dead man has not the Spirit of God, so how can he produce something when he has neither. For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELF, it is the gift of God. Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith is outside of yourself until God sends it forth into your soul. Gal 3:23 Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto that faith which afterwards be revealed. Heb 12:2 He (God) is the author and finisher of our faith. It starts with God and it someday soon in glory will end with God because our eyes shall behold him and are faith shall be made sight. Acts 13:48 And when the gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. As many, not any more, not any less. Just because there are scripture that makes men responsible, doesn't mean man has the ability in himself to perform. That is the reason the scripture say's, Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. Being confident of this very thing, that He that hath begun a good work in you shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, Phil 1:6.

 

[psalms109:31]

Our faith doesn't come from the opinion of man like the world being flat. Our faith comes from the words of Jesus and the words about Him. If you do not have that then you don't have a saving faith, that is why Jesus tells us if you do not eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you. His blood is the life He lived and His flesh is the words He spoke. That is why our faith comes from hearing and not learning will does no body any good.

 

[MB]

The problem is, how can we put forth faith when we don't have faith? In 11 Thess 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. Faith is not a natural fruit of the flesh, read Gal 5:19-21. Faith is not a word, it is a positive action. You either have faith or you don't. A man that has faith is a saved man regardless of how little or large his faith is. A man that has no faith is a lost man. How can you call on a lost man to have faith when he is dead in trespasses and sin, Jer 13:23 Can a Ethioian change his skin, or the leoperd his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. a spiritual dead man is without life, he don't have the ability to have faith.

According to what I believe spiritual death is not like the physical death of the flesh. When the body dies it's life less. How ever when the spirit of man dies it's a different type of death. It is a separation from God the spirit is still conscious. If it wasn't then there would be no point in there being a hell. There would be no eternal suffering. The story of the richman and Lazarus, should give you something to contemplate. The richman in hell was able to ask Abraham to send him Lazrus with his finger dipped in water to cool his tongue.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22. A dead man has not the Spirit of God, so how can he produce something when he has neither. For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELF, it is the gift of God. Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith is outside of yourself until God sends it forth into your soul. Gal 3:23 Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto that faith which afterwards be revealed. Heb 12:2 He (God) is the author and finisher of our faith. It starts with God and it someday soon in glory will end with God because our eyes shall behold him and are faith shall be made sight. Acts 13:48 And when the gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. As many, not any more, not any less. Just because there are scripture that makes men responsible, doesn't mean man has the ability in himself to perform. That is the reason the scripture say's, Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. Being confident of this very thing, that He that hath begun a good work in you shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, Phil 1:6.

Because you believe the spirit is dead to the point of not knowing anything is why you cannot see that man after being drawn is given faith by hearing the gospel. The spirit of Cain for instance. After he killed his brother he spoke with and heard God speak with him. A task a dead spirit cannot do according to Calvinism. He certainly was not regenerated. This doctrine is not in scripture and neither is any of the tulip. Of course we are sinful and undeserving but not unable to respond to the gospel. There is no particular election that sets men up for Salvation. Eph 1:4 says we are chosen in Him. You weren't in Christ before the foundation of the world. You were born in sin like the rest of us. The atonement is not limited to just the particular elect. In fact there is no such thing because we aren't elect until we are in Christ.
This thing about total depravity and being dead spiritually isn't true because scripture states that Salvation has been sent to the Gentiles and they will hear it.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

If what you believe is true, then Paul lied to us.
MB

 

[salzer mtn]

Good afternoon MB. I would rather leave Calvin out of the conversation, I didn't quote Calvin i quoted scripture. John 6:44 The bible say's, No man can come to me, except the father which sent me draw him, and i will raise him up at the last days. No man can come implies inability of any man to come, Except, there is only one exception to the rule, if God draws him. The favorite notion of man is that he can do what he likes, repent or not repent, believe or not believe, come to Christ or not come to Christ, entirely at his own discretion. In fact man likes to think that his salvation is in his own power. Such notions are flatly contradictory to the text before us. When our Lord say's no man can come to me, it is moral inability and not physical inability that he speaks of. The impotence lies in man's will. He cannot come because he will not come. John 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because his deeds are evil. For ever one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. When our Lord said, except the father draw him, it is a drawing which the father effects through the man's own will, by creating a new principle within him. By the unseen agency of the Holy Ghost, he works on the man's heart, without the man himself knowing it at the time, inclines him to think, induces him to feel, shows him his sinfulness, and so leads him at length to Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

Good afternoon MB. I would rather leave Calvin out of the conversation, I didn't quote Calvin i quoted scripture. John 6:44 The bible say's, No man can come to me, except the father which sent me draw him, and i will raise him up at the last days. No man can come implies inability of any man to come, Except, there is only one exception to the rule, if God draws him. The favorite notion of man is that he can do what he likes, repent or not repent, believe or not believe, come to Christ or not come to Christ, entirely at his own discretion. In fact man likes to think that his salvation is in his own power. Such notions are flatly contradictory to the text before us. When our Lord say's no man can come to me, it is moral inability and not physical inability that he speaks of. The impotence lies in man's will. He cannot come because he will not come. John 3:19-20 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because his deeds are evil. For ever one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. When our Lord said, except the father draw him, it is a drawing which the father effects through the man's own will, by creating a new principle within him. By the unseen agency of the Holy Ghost, he works on the man's heart, without the man himself knowing it at the time, inclines him to think, induces him to feel, shows him his sinfulness, and so leads him at length to Christ.

We point to one verse so we can inject into it our elect into the verse, but Jesus tells us who they are in the chapter the audiece of the Father those who He will draw. It is not to those who listen, but to those who listen and learn from Jesus to every word. Jesus word is Spirit and life. Jesus words was not His own but His Father who sent Him. Jesus and the Father is one. The Father gave all the authority to His Son.

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit and through His people with His word He will draw not just anyone, but those who listen and learn will come to the Son.