Does it or did it make any difference to you?

[1689Dave]

Examine yourself and try to figure out why you are the only person in a 25 mile radius of you that has proper theology. Why you are right and EVERYONE else is wrong.

That is how it plays out.

 

[Reynolds]

They believe Christ died for the whole world in their unenlightened sense.

No they don't.

 

[1689Dave]

No they don't.

Who did He die for then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, the REALITY made a difference and I struggled for over a decade to find a “theology” that agreed with the experiential reality of God’s wondrous grace.

The real difference for me is when finally understand the process God used to save me, so really knew God love me, and that he eternally saved me!

 

[Reynolds]

Who did He die for then?

You telling me all about what Arminians believe, you tell me what we believe. I have no problem telling you, bit I shouldn't have to since you supposedly know what Arminians believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

In 1654 Puritans, under Cromwell, were asked to come up with the simplest set of beliefs that would make true fellowship possible among evangelicals. These Puritans, almost all Calvinists came up with 16 such points. High Calvinist John Owen presided over the committee. Not one of the 16 points involve the TULIP or the extent of the atonement or predestination. I think the Calvinist theology, with all it's flaws, is well done and the best attempt to explain theology. But I can say that an Arminian is a 100% equal brother in Christ with no qualifications needed. They need not make any excuse. Nor does anyone who has a combination of partial beliefs borrowed from each system or if they don't know what we're talking about. It's fun to debate these issues on a debate forum but anyone who runs around in a church buttonholing people on these issues should be told to stop.

 

[JonC]

In 1654 Puritans, under Cromwell, were asked to come up with the simplest set of beliefs that would make true fellowship possible among evangelicals. These Puritans, almost all Calvinists came up with 16 such points. High Calvinist John Owen presided over the committee. Not one of the 16 points involve the TULIP or the extent of the atonement or predestination. I think the Calvinist theology, with all it's flaws, is well done and the best attempt to explain theology. But I can say that an Arminian is a 100% equal brother in Christ with no qualifications needed. They need not make any excuse. Nor does anyone who has a combination of partial beliefs borrowed from each system or if they don't know what we're talking about. It's fun to debate these issues on a debate forum but anyone who runs around in a church buttonholing people on these issues should be told to stop.

While I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian I also see both as 100% brethren.

The issue is fun to debate as the differences Center around philosophical ideas rather than Scripture itself (both affirm a belief in the same Bible and both value Scripture while differing in interpretation).

It is fun to debate, but I suspect everybody knows the other will not be persuaded.

I suspect every believer will one day discover they held an understanding that was not quite perfect.

I also suspect Peter will tell me as I walk through the gate that he also knew Calvinism and Arminianism was wrong.

 

[Yeshua1]

While I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian I also see both as 100% brethren.

The issue is fun to debate as the differences Center around philosophical ideas rather than Scripture itself (both affirm a belief in the same Bible and both value Scripture while differing in interpretation).

It is fun to debate, but I suspect everybody knows the other will not be persuaded.

I suspect every believer will one day discover they held an understanding that was not quite perfect.

I also suspect Peter will tell me as I walk through the gate that he also knew Calvinism and Arminianism was wrong.

What aspect pf Calvinism do you have issues with then, is it Pst?

 

[DaveXR650]

I also suspect Peter will tell me as I walk through the gate that he also knew Calvinism and Arminianism was wrong.

JonC, I just hope he's not wearing a big high hat or we're all in trouble on here!

 

[Yeshua1]

JonC, I just hope he's not wearing a big high hat or we're all in trouble on here!

Except Paul told us about Calvinism!

 

[JonC]

What aspect pf Calvinism do you have issues with then, is it Pst?

Same primary issue I have with Arminianism.

No, it is not Penal Substitution Theory but something a bit deeper. I believe the Calvinistic (and Arminian) understanding of divine justice is flawed. If I believed otherwise I would be a Calvinist (it is, IMHO, the most consistent if their concept of justice were correct).

 

[Yeshua1]

Same primary issue I have with Arminianism.

No, it is not Penal Substitution Theory but something a bit deeper. I believe the Calvinistic (and Arminian) understanding of divine justice is flawed. If I believed otherwise I would be a Calvinist (it is, IMHO, the most consistent if their concept of justice were correct).

How are they flawed?

 

[JonC]

How are they flawed?

It. As a philosophy of justice I suppose it is not necessarily flawed, but I suggest it is worldly and different from what Scripture teaches concerning true justice. Other issues concerning the 16th Century idea of justice exists (for example, Calvin's articulation of "simple punishment", but I think even these issues arise out of misunderstanding exactly what is meant by "morality" in a divine sense (think of Javert's pursuit of Valjean).

 

[Yeshua1]

It. As a philosophy of justice I suppose it is not necessarily flawed, but I suggest it is worldly and different from what Scripture teaches concerning true justice. Other issues concerning the 16th Century idea of justice exists (for example, Calvin's articulation of "simple punishment", but I think even these issues arise out of misunderstanding exactly what is meant by "morality" in a divine sense (think of Javert's pursuit of Valjean).

Is God moral and just to have Jesus take what we are due because of being sinners?

 

[Dave G]

When you became a child of the King, did it make any real difference at that specific time concerning the theological perspective or were you busy rejoicing over what God had done?

I had no idea of what the Lord would later show me through His word.

 

[JonC]

Is God moral and just to have Jesus take what we are due because of being sinners?

Yes. That's kinda the point.

 

[1689Dave]

You telling me all about what Arminians believe, you tell me what we believe. I have no problem telling you, bit I shouldn't have to since you supposedly know what Arminians believe.

I was an Arminian and know it ends up with you saving yourself according to many different reasons, depending on who you talk to.

 

[Reynolds]

I was an Arminian and know it ends up with you saving yourself according to many different reasons, depending on who you talk to.

Then you were not an Arminian. A non-cal maybe, but not an Arminian.

 

[1689Dave]

Then you were not an Arminian. A non-cal maybe, but not an Arminian.

I was an Arminian even though it never made sense. Free Will? What role does it play in your brand of Arminianism? It still ends up in supposed self-salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

In 1654 Puritans, under Cromwell, were asked to come up with the simplest set of beliefs that would make true fellowship possible among evangelicals. These Puritans, almost all Calvinists came up with 16 such points. High Calvinist John Owen presided over the committee. Not one of the 16 points involve the TULIP or the extent of the atonement or predestination. I think the Calvinist theology, with all it's flaws, is well done and the best attempt to explain theology. But I can say that an Arminian is a 100% equal brother in Christ with no qualifications needed. They need not make any excuse. Nor does anyone who has a combination of partial beliefs borrowed from each system or if they don't know what we're talking about. It's fun to debate these issues on a debate forum but anyone who runs around in a church buttonholing people on these issues should be told to stop.

What are the flaws in Calvinism? How is Arminianism not flawed?