Does James disprove Free Will?

[timtofly]

No one thinks God forces humanity to do evil. Every Christian who holds to an orthodox view of God knows that humans are born under the curse of sin, in corruption, and need to be redeemed. Humans, living under the curse, do evil by nature. "There is no one righteous not even one." (Romans 3:10)
Second, billions of people know nothing about Jesus. Under your view they just have to not hear about Jesus and they will remain in the book of life. Since they know nothing about Jesus, they cannot reject him. If they cannot reject him they cannot be removed from the book of life. Therefore, don't evangelize or tell anyone about Jesus and you ensure they go to heaven.

So now you accuse me of Reformed theology?

I never said they had to hear. I said they need to hear. The only way they can hear, is if someone goes and tells them. I said that not hearing is no way an excuse. No human on earth that ever lived has an excuse.

That is what Reformed theology teaches, that they do have an excuse, their sin is their excuse. They die in sin, because their total depravity can do nothing else. Reformed theology goes on to say, they were never meant to be saved, because their name was never written down to begin with. Reformed theology teaches that peradventure some one did go, then those people just happened to have their name written down anyway.


Their name in the book of life is not a ticket out of punishment. Their name will be removed at the GWT. God told Moses in Exodus 32:33

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

[AustinC]

So now you accuse me of Reformed theology?

I never said they had to hear. I said they need to hear. The only way they can hear, is if someone goes and tells them. I said that not hearing is no way an excuse. No human on earth that ever lived has an excuse.

That is what Reformed theology teaches, that they do have an excuse, their sin is their excuse. They die in sin, because their total depravity can do nothing else. Reformed theology goes on to say, they were never meant to be saved, because their name was never written down to begin with. Reformed theology teaches that peradventure some one did go, then those people just happened to have their name written down anyway.


Their name in the book of life is not a ticket out of punishment. Their name will be removed at the GWT. God told Moses in Exodus 32:33

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

First, I would never call your view, Reformed.
Second, you openly say all humanity is born with their names written in the lambs book of life. This means all humanity is born universally saved.
Now you say that the Great White Throne judgment determines who remains and who doesn't. Salvation is thus determined by the works men do. This is legalism and Paul called it anathema in his letter to the Galatians. All our righteousness is as filthy rags, according to God. If humans are judged by works, we all are doomed. Thus, no one is written in the lambs book of life.
Tim, you keep repeating Pelagian theology, which the church rightly condemns as a heresy.

 

[HankD]

WHY DO WE (YA ME TOO) WANT TO MAKE RULES FOR GOD AS TO HOW TO MANAGE HIS GOSPEL?

 

[1689Dave]

Did God appoint them on his foreknowledge? Because if He did, it would be based on their free will choice. If it was not foreknowledge, then you deny the verse and it's usage of "them He foreknew". Why not just say God knew He would force them to stay the way they were, and He knew, He would force them, thus He Predestined to force them to damnation?

Foreknowledge = predestination. How can God see something he did not create if he knows all?

 

[1689Dave]

And we have to choose the new birth. God does not hit us over the head with it.

Just as you chose your natural birth?

 

[1689Dave]

So I am guessing that you are a Calvinist?

I've been called worse.

 

[church mouse guy]

I've been called worse.

Now that's funny! Are you enunciating a doctrine of holiness?

 

[1689Dave]

Now that's funny! Are you enunciating a doctrine of holiness?

Jesus said to expect it if you know the truth. I feel blessed.

 

[church mouse guy]

Jesus said to expect it if you know the truth. I feel blessed.

Well, you cited Dort so what is a person to do?

 

[atpollard]

Well, I have truly learned something today. John (3:16) lied when he said; “- - WHOSOEVER - -“!!!!!!

God actually said:

[John 3:16-21 NASB]

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

So who is "whoever believes in Him" and who is "he who does not believe"?

• [John 10:25-30 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."
• [1 Corinthians2:12-14 NASB] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual [thoughts] with spiritual [words.] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
• [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Context is your friend.

 

[1689Dave]

Well, you cited Dort so what is a person to do?

Stop robbing God of his glory in salvation and applying it to yourself.

 

[timtofly]

First, I would never call your view, Reformed.
Second, you openly say all humanity is born with their names written in the lambs book of life. This means all humanity is born universally saved.
Now you say that the Great White Throne judgment determines who remains and who doesn't. Salvation is thus determined by the works men do. This is legalism and Paul called it anathema in his letter to the Galatians. All our righteousness is as filthy rags, according to God. If humans are judged by works, we all are doomed. Thus, no one is written in the lambs book of life.
Tim, you keep repeating Pelagian theology, which the church rightly condemns as a heresy.

You are the one defining what it means to be in the Lamb's book of life. Those who are in the book upon their death are not even redeemed, that is restored until after the 5th seal is opened. Being born again is the birth of the Spirit.

Reformed theology says that only God chooses the second birth. Reformed theology equates a spiritual birth as working exactly the same as a natural birth. It is not. Do people "must be" born naturally? How can a person must born himself?

A living person, must be born again, meaning they must accept. It is not automatic. If it was automatic, then Jesus would have told Nicodemus, "you have been born again."

God judges those who have been the recipients of the Atonement, yes. The only thing that I am saying is that all have been extended the chance to be saved. But they must choose it. Reformed theology says, no way, Jesus lied to Nicodemus. Nicodemus, according to Reformed theology did not have to do anything, in fact Nicodemus could not do anything.

 

[timtofly]

Foreknowledge = predestination. How can God see something he did not create if he knows all?

Matthew 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[1689Dave]

Matthew 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These were never saved. "I NEVER knew you" What's your point?

 

[timtofly]

Just as you chose your natural birth?

Is there one birth or two births?

You call them one single birth from conception if you are Reformed. You deny the second birth altogether. Why ask me if they are the same thing?

They are different because one happens naturally, beyond your control. The second only happens if you make the choice to accept the second birth. You do not do any work for either one, but the second one is not automatic. Jesus said the church needs to spread the Good news. It was not just to point out an automatic process. It was to let people know, they must be born again.

 

[timtofly]

These were never saved. "I NEVER knew you" What's your point?

You said God never created them, nor did they exist.

 

[1689Dave]

You said God never created them, nor did they exist.

God created all of the lost.

 

[1689Dave]

Is there one birth or two births?

You call them one single birth from conception if you are Reformed. You deny the second birth altogether. Why ask me if they are the same thing?

They are different because one happens naturally, beyond your control. The second only happens if you make the choice to accept the second birth. You do not do any work for either one, but the second one is not automatic. Jesus said the church needs to spread the Good news. It was not just to point out an automatic process. It was to let people know, they must be born again.

The flesh cannot choose anything but an idol...a false Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Is there one birth or two births?

You call them one single birth from conception if you are Reformed. You deny the second birth altogether. Why ask me if they are the same thing?

They are different because one happens naturally, beyond your control. The second only happens if you make the choice to accept the second birth. You do not do any work for either one, but the second one is not automatic. Jesus said the church needs to spread the Good news. It was not just to point out an automatic process. It was to let people know, they must be born again.

Your assertion is flat-out wrong.
Nowhere in Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus on being born-again do we see Jesus making the assertion you are making. You have a preconceived agenda and will not let it go, regardless of your lack of scriptural support.

John 3:3-15 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

 

[timtofly]

God created all of the lost.

Then why did you ask:

Foreknowledge = predestination. How can God see something he did not create if he knows all?

Is the verse in the Bible I quoted? Does God never know some? I do not accept Reformed theology. Ask them that question. The Bible says at the GWT, when names are removed, it is as if God never knew them. Reformed theology claims, their names were never there at all. Reformed theology has to explain it's own contradictions, not me. I just point them out.