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Does James disprove Free Will?

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timtofly

timtofly

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Your assertion is flat-out wrong.
Nowhere in Jesus dialogue with Nicodemus on being born-again do we see Jesus making the assertion you are making. You have a preconceived agenda and will not let it go, regardless of your lack of scriptural support.

John 3:3-15 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
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Marvel not that Jesus said, "Ye must be born again."
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
timtofly said:
Then why did you ask:

Is the verse in the Bible I quoted? Does God never know some? I do not accept Reformed theology. Ask them that question. The Bible says at the GWT, when names are removed, it is as if God never knew them. Reformed theology claims, their names were never there at all. Reformed theology has to explain it's own contradictions, not me. I just point them out.
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Is God ignorant? Doesn't know what he created until you clue him in?
 
timtofly

timtofly

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
I'm saying you cannot will what is beyond your reach. And salvation is beyond everyone's reach. It is of grace.
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Grace:
the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessing.

Do you have to will a free condition, or is it free without your will?

Now with no force from any direction can you choose a free condition if there is no force against or no force in favor of. If you deny this, you deny the ability for any one to change their mind. Can you say with 100% assurance that changing one's mind does not exist? Did you even think about the question? Did you know the question and answer before reading this post? Have you ever lied? Can you even know what a lie is?

If Salvation is of Grace, it cannot be beyond every one's reach. These are two competing thoughts. If no one can change their mind, one of these can never be known at the same time as the other thought. It cannot be free, at the same time, no one can ever have it.
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
timtofly said:
Marvel not that Jesus said, "Ye must be born again."
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I don't marvel. What makes me marvel is a person who thinks their choice is the cause agent of their being born again. The text does not support that notion, yet here you are asserting it anyway. That is what makes me marvel.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
timtofly said:
Grace:
the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessing.

Do you have to will a free condition, or is it free without your will?

Now with no force from any direction can you choose a free condition if there is no force against or no force in favor of. If you deny this, you deny the ability for any one to change their mind. Can you say with 100% assurance that changing one's mind does not exist? Did you even think about the question? Did you know the question and answer before reading this post? Have you ever lied? Can you even know what a lie is?

If Salvation is of Grace, it cannot be beyond every one's reach. These are two competing thoughts. If no one can change their mind, one of these can never be known at the same time as the other thought. It cannot be free, at the same time, no one can ever have it.
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The will is not involved. It makes you the savior if you think this way. God saves those who cannot believe, nor want to believe. He turns us into faithful believers through the new birth, against our will.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
timtofly said:
If Salvation is of Grace, it cannot be beyond every one's reach. These are two competing thoughts. If no one can change their mind, one of these can never be known at the same time as the other thought. It cannot be free, at the same time, no one can ever have it.
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God says (on this subject):

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NASB]
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​
 
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1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
HankD said:
ok then to whom would you say the scripture says it is given?
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The word for preaching the gospel = announcing. Never offering as though a job offer. As soon as you make it a job offer it cannot save. The person accepting the offer assumes they save themselves.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
HankD said:
ok then to whom would you say the scripture says it is given?
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I will let Dave answer for Dave, but as a Particular Baptist I can answer for me:

  • [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  • [John 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."
  • [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Grace is given to those "the Father draws", the "sheep" given by the Father to the Son (and withheld from "those not of My sheep"). Grace is given to those called according to the purpose of God, and "foreknown" (a loving relationship) by God. We all start out spiritually dead, objects deserving wrath, "but God" makes us alive ... and he does it by giving us the gift that gives (draws) us to Christ.

For which I am left utterly humbled and grateful.
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
HankD said:
but who is offered that grace - all men?some? a few?
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Your struggle is in imagining that it is offered and you get a choice at accepting or rejecting. Is there scripture that says God's redemption is offered and peopl
timtofly said:
Grace:
the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessing.

Do you have to will a free condition, or is it free without your will?

Now with no force from any direction can you choose a free condition if there is no force against or no force in favor of. If you deny this, you deny the ability for any one to change their mind. Can you say with 100% assurance that changing one's mind does not exist? Did you even think about the question? Did you know the question and answer before reading this post? Have you ever lied? Can you even know what a lie is?

If Salvation is of Grace, it cannot be beyond every one's reach. These are two competing thoughts. If no one can change their mind, one of these can never be known at the same time as the other thought. It cannot be free, at the same time, no one can ever have it.
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1) Grace is not free, nor is it extended to everyone.
When Paul writes: "For by grace you are saved, through faith, which is not of yourself, but is the gift of God", Paul is referring to the free gift of faith, given to those who are saved by God's choice to be gracious.
Grace is a choice God makes because Jesus has atoned for that person's sin. This means when God chose to extend grace to a person, that grace is irresistible. It is Sovereignly declared.
So grace is given to a person who does not merit such a favor, but it is given precisely because God has atoned for that person's sin. The atonement cost God his Son.
2) Precisely because Grace is beyond reach, it means that no one can attain it except through the choice of God to extend it to you. If a person could reach it and grab hold of it on his own, there would be no need for a Savior.
All humanity misses the mark in their effort to attain grace from God. They cannot do it. God must extend his unmerited favor to them and God must cause grace to be irresistible. If he didn't, everyone would reject it and keep working for their own solution.
 
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