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Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?

Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
The unjust are Justified, the ones in Rom 5:18b are Justified as a result of Christs doing. So Christ didnt do , or die for the unjustified, pretty simple deduction
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BF you are missing the truth of this verse. We are all condemned due to Adam's sin we can all be saved due to Christ's atonement for our sins.

If you could get past your bias then you would see this. The whole passage [Rom 5:1-21] compares Adam with Christ.

You are fixated on one verse and ignore all else. That is an error I have seen you make over and over.

The verse says all can be justified just as all were condemned, where do you get that only some are justified in that verse BF. You have to read that into the text.

"All" does not mean "some".
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Paul made it very clear that the "all" who died in Adam is the same "all" who can be made alive in Christ.
This salvation cannot be universal, however, because that would be untrue to our experience. So obviously that free gift did not equate to salvation for all men. But like the judgment, it came. God justifies those that freely placed their faith [Romans 3:25] in the finished work of Jesus the Christ. [Romans 3:26]
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[Rom 3:21-26 KJV]
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 does not actually say THEY FREELY place THEIR FAITH ... the paragraph speaks of "the faith OF Jesus Christ" and "him which believeth" (irrespective of the source).
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
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It says what it says.
The problem is that ... as is too often the case ... what it SAYS cannot be what it means.

The verse is clear enough that:
1. it is a GIFT.
2. it is given to ALL MEN.
3. the gift provides JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE.
... and we know from many other verses that "all men" do not possess "justification", so in God's word (like life) "there must be a catch". :confused:

You hold one answer and others hold another. [shrug] :Coffee
So, what else is new in Christiandom. ;)
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
[Rom 3:21-26 KJV]
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 does not actually say THEY FREELY place THEIR FAITH ... the paragraph speaks of "the faith OF Jesus Christ" and "him which believeth" (irrespective of the source).
Click to expand...

My error there, thinking one thing and writing another.

Yes we see the faithfulness of Christ in Rom 3:25 and we also see the free will faith that saves in Rom 3:26.

Actually the paragraph speaks of the of who can be saved and why. "He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." vs 26 and again "we maintain that a man is justified by faith" vs 28.

So we do see the source of faith, the man. God does not believe for them or give them faith
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
BF you are missing the truth of this verse. We are all condemned due to Adam's sin we can all be saved due to Christ's atonement for our sins.

If you could get past your bias then you would see this. The whole passage [Rom 5:1-21] compares Adam with Christ.

You are fixated on one verse and ignore all else. That is an error I have seen you make over and over.

The verse says all can be justified just as all were condemned, where do you get that only some are justified in that verse BF. You have to read that into the text.

"All" does not mean "some".
Click to expand...
The unjust are not Justified, the ones in Rom 5:18b are Justified as a result of Christs doing. So Christ didnt do , or die for the unjustified, pretty simple deduction

Here are the unjust Rev 22:11

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Acts 24 15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So the unjust arent part of the all in the all Justified in Rom 5:18b
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
It says what it says.
The problem is that ... as is too often the case ... what it SAYS cannot be what it means.

The verse is clear enough that:
1. it is a GIFT.
2. it is given to ALL MEN.
3. the gift provides JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE.
... and we know from many other verses that "all men" do not possess "justification", so in God's word (like life) "there must be a catch". :confused:

You hold one answer and others hold another. [shrug] :Coffee
So, what else is new in Christiandom. ;)
Click to expand...
It say plainly that the all men in Rom 5:18 b are Justified to life, so you know its limited to the Justified duh

In fact the all in Rom 5:18 are the very exact the many in Rom 5:19. That further instructs the anointed mind, that the all in Vs 18 is but the many in Vs 19, and many never means all without exception.

So if a gift is given to all men and all men dont have it, then common sense tells you the all men is limited to all the men that have the gift.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair

BF you are missing the truth of this verse. We are all condemned due to Adam's sin we can all be saved due to Christ's atonement for our sins.
Click to expand...

Christ paid for the condemnation due for adams sin for the elect. Thats what His Death for them was all about duh. So the elect are never condemned for adams sin, nor their own sins they commit all the days of their life. Christ paid it all for them.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Every elect sinner that enters this world, they are Justified and Christ having died for them AND RISEN AGAIN He is at the Right hand of God making intercession for them, and them alone, because He Justified them with His Blood Rom 5:9
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
The unjust are not Justified, the ones in Rom 5:18b are Justified as a result of Christs doing. So Christ didnt do , or die for the unjustified, pretty simple deduction

Here are the unjust Rev 22:11

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Acts 24 15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So the unjust arent part of the all in the all Justified in Rom 5:18b
Click to expand...

BF you are ignoring what the passage is telling us.

Just as death came to all men through Adam so life can come to all men through Christ Jesus. We all die but we can live through faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

The prior verse makes this clear BF.
For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one,
much more
those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
@Silverhair



Christ paid for the condemnation due for adams sin for the elect. Thats what His Death for them was all about duh. So the elect are never condemned for adams sin, nor their own sins they commit all the days of their life. Christ paid it all for them.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Every elect sinner that enters this world, they are Justified and Christ having died for them AND RISEN AGAIN He is at the Right hand of God making intercession for them, and them alone, because He Justified them with His Blood Rom 5:9
Click to expand...

So faith has nothing to do with ones salvation according to you BF.

Of course the bible disagrees with your view but what does that matter as long as you think you are right.

Joh 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Why believe Jesus when we have you to correct Him.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Silverhair said:
BF you are ignoring what the passage is telling us.

Just as death came to all men through Adam so life can come to all men through Christ Jesus. We all die but we can live through faith in the risen Christ Jesus.

The prior verse makes this clear BF.
For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one,
much more
those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Two different people, to different All's
 
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