quantumfaith
Active Member
Very well said. Civil...and yes tolerant. Particularly tolerant is the highlighted portion. Blessings.
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Does The Bible Teach People To Have Homophobia?
- Thread starter KobrinFamily
- Start date
Very well said. Civil...and yes tolerant. Particularly tolerant is the highlighted portion. Blessings.
DiamondLady
New Member
The issue not being given any attention here is that other sins (equal or not) are not part of a political agenda. They are not being pushed in schools at grade school level to coerce and force acceptance. They are not trying to pass laws and brainwash our children with it. If they were doing those same things with those other sins (equal or not) then we would give them the same attention.
I agree they're not part of a political agenda, but that's not the issue on this discussion. This discussion centers around whether or not GOD views this sin as greater than another.
I might also add, this is no ones fault but our own that it IS part of a politica agenda. We Christians have sat idly by for far too long, letting things go by us, saying, "Oh well, it'll all be okay" for issue after issue, starting with prayer in school. It's really past time for us to stop letting the 14% of Americans who scream loudest to get their way. It only takes one bad apple, and we've already let the whole barrel go rotten.
Calvinists like to claim that since all fall short of the glory of God, we have no capacity to desire not to sin, to desire the righteousness of God, or to desire salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. But they have no basis for these false assertions. Sure the first soil had so harden his heart he could not even understand the gospel, but the other three soils were receptive, proving Calvinism is false doctrine. (Matthew 13)
What is really sad is this false belief corrupts their understanding of other Biblical doctrines such that most of their assertions also have no basis in scripture.
The consequence of sin comes in two parts. One part is a one size fits all punishment, if you break the Law on any point, you have broken the whole law. And the punishment for this is eternal separation from God. Looking at another's wife with lust, or misrepresenting the views of others. We all face eternal separation, no matter whether we sinned once or every minute of every day of our life. But the other consequence of sin is perfect justice, God will punish us for our sins. Here is where some sins result in "more tolerable" punishment than say leading a little one astray. So we are to sin as little as possible, because when we sin we not only hurt ourselves, we hurt those we love. We are to make no accommodation with the flesh.
One last point, a poster thought a person could not get to heaven if they sinned subsequently to being "saved." What the Bible teaches is that once we are "in Christ" our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, washed away by the blood of Jesus, so "in Christ" we can enter heaven, not based on our effort to not sin, but based on being sinless in Christ.
But this fact is not a license to sin, for if we do not hate sin and strive to avoid it, we should have no confidence we are in fact "in Christ" indwelt, and being convicted by the HS.
What is really sad is this false belief corrupts their understanding of other Biblical doctrines such that most of their assertions also have no basis in scripture.
The consequence of sin comes in two parts. One part is a one size fits all punishment, if you break the Law on any point, you have broken the whole law. And the punishment for this is eternal separation from God. Looking at another's wife with lust, or misrepresenting the views of others. We all face eternal separation, no matter whether we sinned once or every minute of every day of our life. But the other consequence of sin is perfect justice, God will punish us for our sins. Here is where some sins result in "more tolerable" punishment than say leading a little one astray. So we are to sin as little as possible, because when we sin we not only hurt ourselves, we hurt those we love. We are to make no accommodation with the flesh.
One last point, a poster thought a person could not get to heaven if they sinned subsequently to being "saved." What the Bible teaches is that once we are "in Christ" our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, washed away by the blood of Jesus, so "in Christ" we can enter heaven, not based on our effort to not sin, but based on being sinless in Christ.
But this fact is not a license to sin, for if we do not hate sin and strive to avoid it, we should have no confidence we are in fact "in Christ" indwelt, and being convicted by the HS.
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No Blackbird. What I mind is not that at all. (although I do mind condescending, sarcastic men who don't think a woman can have a mind and use it, a lot).
Secondly, I don't mind if there is a reality of measurement...but in this case there is NOT. I do not believe God "winks" at ANY sin, not even the way you and some of your cohorts have been treating me in this discussion. BTW, it's been offensive to me.
I also do not think the sin of homosexuality is not bad...it is, it's listed in scripture as an abomination. What I DO think, however, is it's not any worse than lying, cheating, being froward (you do know what that means right?...see I can be condescending as well.) Ever been proud? Told a lie? Shed innocent blood? Think evil things? Be quick to get into mischief? Be a false witness? Ever sow discord? ALL of those things are also listed specifically as abominations in scripture.
Now do you want to try to tell me that they carry less weight? Are you trying to tell me that we should no longer love someone who lies? We should no longer reach out and witness to them? We should tell them there's no possible way they can get into Heaven? Jesus spent his time with the worst sinners possible. He loved them and reached out to them. He told the thief, in his last living moments on earth, that on that day the thief would be with Him in Paradise.
What I think is we need to stop bristling, stamping our feet, and railing against it and instead put feet to our words and start witnessing against it, one person at a time, using the Gospel and letting God take care of the rest.
As far as the way you have been treated in this thread----well---You need to remind yourself that when you open up for debate you are gonna be greeted with a hodge podge of opinions and personalities different than yours---and I myself know that in debate there are times when I find myself dusting myself off and going at it again(particularily in a alcoholic beverage debate--to which I detest the use of alcohol as a beverage---but not everyone on the board sees the issue as I see it----that doesn't mean that I am being "treated badly"
As far as the sin of homosexuality being no different degree as the sin of (say) fudging a little bit on your income tax to the point where the fudge is a sin----well----I simply will have to disagree with you on this issue
Last---I will try to remember that you are a woman/lady---and that I will post to you as a friend to a friend and mean no harm to come to you in any way, shape, or form
Moreover----keep posting----keep debateing---hang in there with the best of the worst and best of the best----and remember that when those of us who find ourselves disagreeing with you it forces us to "be on our toes" and do our homework and even at times to hone our skills at being online debators
Your friend always,
Blackbird
aka Bro. David
DiamondLady
New Member
As far as the way you have been treated in this thread----well---You need to remind yourself that when you open up for debate you are gonna be greeted with a hodge podge of opinions and personalities different than yours---and I myself know that in debate there are times when I find myself dusting myself off and going at it again(particularily in a alcoholic beverage debate--to which I detest the use of alcohol as a beverage---but not everyone on the board sees the issue as I see it----that doesn't mean that I am being "treated badly"
Last---I will try to remember that you are a woman/lady---and that I will post to you as a friend to a friend and mean no harm to come to you in any way, shape, or form
Moreover----keep posting----keep debateing---hang in there with the best of the worst and best of the best----and remember that when those of us who find ourselves disagreeing with you it forces us to "be on our toes" and do our homework and even at times to hone our skills at being online debators
Bro David, I appreciate your response. You know, I enjoy a good, spirited debate. I appreciate hearing the opinions of others and am usually able to see the other side, even when I don't agree. I try to keep a debate to the issue and not make it personal....all good rules of debating.
Thank you again, and look forward to having many spirited discussions with you again.
DiamondLady..aka Judy
seekingthetruth
New Member
Equal sins?
I have been studying different sins and puinishments in the Bible for the past few days, and I have some observations and some questions.
One argument I followed on here was whether we are lost and damned because of 1. the sin nature we are born with or 2. the committing of our first actual physical sin.
Jesus said, "28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit
Mark 3
It appears to me that niether sin nature or actual sin condemns us. Jesus said all of this can be forgiven. Only rejecting Christ is unforgivable. God's Grace and conviction is brought to us by the Holy Spirit. We cannot come to Christ without this conviction and influence. Therefore, if we reject the Holy Spirit, we are also rejecting Jesus, redendering us lost.
Martthew 12: 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Paul spoke against Jesus when he was persecuting Christians, and Jesus forgave him. But, had Paul rejected the saving Grace of God through the witness and influence of the Holy Spirit he could not have recieved this forgiveness.
My point here is that homosexuality won't send a person to hell, only rejecting the ministry of the Holy Spirit and thereby rejecting Christ will.
I do however believe it is Biblical for man to hold people acountable at different levels for different sins. And I believe that sexual sins are at the top. I also believe that the acceptance of homosexuality by our society today is a worse sin than the practice of it. There are many people that would never experiment with homosexuality if our society didn't condone it.
1 Cor 6: 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's
Paul makes it clear here that all other sins are commited outside the body, but sexual sins are inside the temple of the Holy Ghost. I would argue that stealing a pencil at the office (although sin) doesn't compare to defiling the temple of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 6:23
For the WAGES OF SIN [is] death; but the gift OF God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
We all know this verse but I feel it is appropriate here. It is clear that all men haved sinned, and all men will die a physical death because of it. And it is clear that no distinction is made aboput the severity of the sin. We all sin, we all die, period.
But, God also established earthly laws to hold man accountable while he is alive here on Earth. And the punishment for different crimes are different depending on the severity of the crime.
Luke 12 47-48: 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
It's clear here that Jesus taught that some sins are worthy of more punishment than others.
Exodus 22, God put in place a huge range of punishments according to the severity of the sin.
Leviticus Chapter 20, God places extreme punishment (death) on sexual sins.
It appears to me that although homosexuality is a forgivable sin, it is still deemed as one of the worse sins by God.
It also appears to me that only the sin of not accepting Christ will send a person to Hell.
It also apears to me that we all will die a physical death for our sins, but this physical death has nothing to do with where we spend eternity. The physical death is imposed on all men, but the spiritual death is only imposed on those that reject Christ.
So, in the end, the only sin that matters (because it is unforgivable) is rejecting Christ.
Am I reading these scriptures wrong?
As far as homosexuals go, yes I hope they all repent and turn to Christ, but in the meantime, I refuse to be "unequally yoked" together with them.
John
I have been studying different sins and puinishments in the Bible for the past few days, and I have some observations and some questions.
One argument I followed on here was whether we are lost and damned because of 1. the sin nature we are born with or 2. the committing of our first actual physical sin.
Jesus said, "28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit
Mark 3
It appears to me that niether sin nature or actual sin condemns us. Jesus said all of this can be forgiven. Only rejecting Christ is unforgivable. God's Grace and conviction is brought to us by the Holy Spirit. We cannot come to Christ without this conviction and influence. Therefore, if we reject the Holy Spirit, we are also rejecting Jesus, redendering us lost.
Martthew 12: 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Paul spoke against Jesus when he was persecuting Christians, and Jesus forgave him. But, had Paul rejected the saving Grace of God through the witness and influence of the Holy Spirit he could not have recieved this forgiveness.
My point here is that homosexuality won't send a person to hell, only rejecting the ministry of the Holy Spirit and thereby rejecting Christ will.
I do however believe it is Biblical for man to hold people acountable at different levels for different sins. And I believe that sexual sins are at the top. I also believe that the acceptance of homosexuality by our society today is a worse sin than the practice of it. There are many people that would never experiment with homosexuality if our society didn't condone it.
1 Cor 6: 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's
Paul makes it clear here that all other sins are commited outside the body, but sexual sins are inside the temple of the Holy Ghost. I would argue that stealing a pencil at the office (although sin) doesn't compare to defiling the temple of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 6:23
For the WAGES OF SIN [is] death; but the gift OF God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
We all know this verse but I feel it is appropriate here. It is clear that all men haved sinned, and all men will die a physical death because of it. And it is clear that no distinction is made aboput the severity of the sin. We all sin, we all die, period.
But, God also established earthly laws to hold man accountable while he is alive here on Earth. And the punishment for different crimes are different depending on the severity of the crime.
Luke 12 47-48: 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
It's clear here that Jesus taught that some sins are worthy of more punishment than others.
Exodus 22, God put in place a huge range of punishments according to the severity of the sin.
Leviticus Chapter 20, God places extreme punishment (death) on sexual sins.
It appears to me that although homosexuality is a forgivable sin, it is still deemed as one of the worse sins by God.
It also appears to me that only the sin of not accepting Christ will send a person to Hell.
It also apears to me that we all will die a physical death for our sins, but this physical death has nothing to do with where we spend eternity. The physical death is imposed on all men, but the spiritual death is only imposed on those that reject Christ.
So, in the end, the only sin that matters (because it is unforgivable) is rejecting Christ.
Am I reading these scriptures wrong?
As far as homosexuals go, yes I hope they all repent and turn to Christ, but in the meantime, I refuse to be "unequally yoked" together with them.
John
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DiamondLady
New Member
I have been studying different sins and puinishments in the Bible for the past few days, and I have some observations and some questions.
My point here is that homosexuality won't send a person to hell, only rejecting the ministry of the Holy Spirit and thereby rejecting Christ will.
Am I reading these scriptures wrong?
As far as homosexuals go, yes I hope they all repent and turn to Christ, but in the meantime, I refuse to be "unequally yoked" together with them.
John
No, you're not reading the scriptures wrong. Finally someone GOT what I've been trying to say. Oh, and unless you plan on marrying a homosexual you can't be unequally yoked with them. That has nothing to do with association, fellowship, acquaintance, etc. Without speaking to them and building a form of acquaintance it's going to be hard to win them to the Lord.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I have been studying different sins and puinishments in the Bible for the past few days, and I have some observations and some questions.
One argument I followed on here was whether we are lost and damned because of 1. the sin nature we are born with or 2. the committing of our first actual physical sin.
Jesus said, "28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit
Mark 3
It appears to me that niether sin nature or actual sin condemns us. Jesus said all of this can be forgiven. Only rejecting Christ is unforgivable. God's Grace and conviction is brought to us by the Holy Spirit. We cannot come to Christ without this conviction and influence. Therefore, if we reject the Holy Spirit, we are also rejecting Jesus, redendering us lost.
Martthew 12: 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Paul spoke against Jesus when he was persecuting Christians, and Jesus forgave him. But, had Paul rejected the saving Grace of God through the witness and influence of the Holy Spirit he could not have recieved this forgiveness.
My point here is that homosexuality won't send a person to hell, only rejecting the ministry of the Holy Spirit and thereby rejecting Christ will.
I do however believe it is Biblical for man to hold people acountable at different levels for different sins. And I believe that sexual sins are at the top. I also believe that the acceptance of homosexuality by our society today is a worse sin than the practice of it. There are many people that would never experiment with homosexuality if our society didn't condone it.
1 Cor 6: 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's
Paul makes it clear here that all other sins are commited outside the body, but sexual sins are inside the temple of the Holy Ghost. I would argue that stealing a pencil at the office (although sin) doesn't compare to defiling the temple of the Holy Ghost.
Romans 6:23
For the WAGES OF SIN [is] death; but the gift OF God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
We all know this verse but I feel it is appropriate here. It is clear that all men haved sinned, and all men will die a physical death because of it. And it is clear that no distinction is made aboput the severity of the sin. We all sin, we all die, period.
But, God also established earthly laws to hold man accountable while he is alive here on Earth. And the punishment for different crimes are different depending on the severity of the crime.
Luke 12 47-48: 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
It's clear here that Jesus taught that some sins are worthy of more punishment than others.
Exodus 22, God put in place a huge range of punishments according to the severity of the sin.
Leviticus Chapter 20, God places extreme punishment (death) on sexual sins.
It appears to me that although homosexuality is a forgivable sin, it is still deemed as one of the worse sins by God.
It also appears to me that only the sin of not accepting Christ will send a person to Hell.
It also apears to me that we all will die a physical death for our sins, but this physical death has nothing to do with where we spend eternity. The physical death is imposed on all men, but the spiritual death is only imposed on those that reject Christ.
So, in the end, the only sin that matters (because it is unforgivable) is rejecting Christ.
Am I reading these scriptures wrong?
As far as homosexuals go, yes I hope they all repent and turn to Christ, but in the meantime, I refuse to be "unequally yoked" together with them.
John
John,
H*m*s**uals, heter*se*uals, otherwise, all are already on their way to hell, being spiritually lost already.
They're already lost, prior to rejecting Christ.
- Peace
seekingthetruth
New Member
Preacher, I believe that is what I said.
Even so, the only way they will go to hell is by rejecting Christ.
Gay or otherwise.
None of us are going to go to hell for stealing Little Johnny's lunch money when we were 4 years old, Jesus forgives that. Charles Manson isn't going to go to hell because of his awful crimes, Jesus would forgive that.
But He doesn't forgive rejection of Him.
John
Even so, the only way they will go to hell is by rejecting Christ.
Gay or otherwise.
None of us are going to go to hell for stealing Little Johnny's lunch money when we were 4 years old, Jesus forgives that. Charles Manson isn't going to go to hell because of his awful crimes, Jesus would forgive that.
But He doesn't forgive rejection of Him.
John
preacher4truth
Active Member
Preacher, I believe that is what I said.
Even so, the only way they will go to hell is by rejecting Christ.
Gay or otherwise.
None of us are going to go to hell for stealing Little Johnny's lunch money when we were 4 years old, Jesus forgives that. Charles Manson isn't going to go to hell because of his awful crimes, Jesus would forgive that.
But He doesn't forgive rejection of Him.
John
I see.
I believe mankind is already on way to hell prior to rejecting Christ, because man is already lost and condemned.
- Peace
seekingthetruth
New Member
No, you're not reading the scriptures wrong. Finally someone GOT what I've been trying to say. Oh, and unless you plan on marrying a homosexual you can't be unequally yoked with them. That has nothing to do with association, fellowship, acquaintance, etc. Without speaking to them and building a form of acquaintance it's going to be hard to win them to the Lord.
Although "unequally yoked" certainly applies to marriage, I do not believe that the meaning of this passage is retricted to marriage only. I see it applied in general terms as it applies to the relationship between believers and non-believers.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you]
It is clearly talking about believers not taking part in worldly practices.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you]
[/COLOR]
It clearly says to be "seperate" from the world. And I don't see anything restricting this to marriage. In fact, it doesn't even mention marriage.
Like I said before, gays are welcome to come to our church to hear the gospel, but they are not allowed to join the church, just as two heterosexuals living together are not.
But, I will not expose myself or my family to their lifestyle by engaging in social activities with them.
Diamondlady, I will rephrase my previous statement for you. "I choose to remain seperate from them so that the Lord will receive me"
John
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seekingthetruth
New Member
I see.
I believe mankind is already on way to hell prior to rejecting Christ, because man is already lost and condemned.
- Peace
Agreed. Mankind is already condemned. But the only way the sentence is carried out is if man commits the ultimate sin of rejecting Christ.
I see the glass half full, in that everybody has the glorious oppurtunity to know Christ.
You seem to see the glass as half empty, because we all born lost.
I say we are both correct, I just choose to look towards the salvation of my fellow man, and not his lost state.
But then again, love of God and fear of hell are both essential teachings in any effective ministry.
John
preacher4truth
Active Member
Agreed. Mankind is already condemned. But the only way the sentence is carried out is if man commits the ultimate sin of rejecting Christ.
I see the glass half full, in that everybody has the glorious oppurtunity to know Christ.
You seem to see the glass as half empty, because we all born lost.
I say we are both correct, I just choose to look towards the salvation of my fellow man, and not his lost state.
But then again, love of God and fear of hell are both essential teachings in any effective ministry.
John
No need for you to view me or slight me as seeing the glass "half-empty" as I just see man in his lost state Biblically.
Does God seem to see the glass "half-empty" because He told us we are all lost outside of Christ? I'm merely stating what He has stated.
I choose to look at man as lost, those who are outside of Christ, which is the Biblical view.
If that is a glass half-empty to you then that's too bad as it is the true Biblical view of man.
By the way, only His elect will come to Him, not all. Other than that, all you have is "power of positive thinking."
Those homosexuals and other lost who "come" to your church? Already on their way to hell, or only after they reject Christ?
seekingthetruth
New Member
No need for you to view me or slight me as seeing the glass "half-empty" as I just see man in his lost state Biblically.
Does God seem to see the glass "half-empty" because He told us we are all lost outside of Christ? I'm merely stating what He has stated.
I choose to look at man as lost, those who are outside of Christ, which is the Biblical view.
If that is a glass half-empty to you then that's too bad as it is the true Biblical view of man.
By the way, only His elect will come to Him, not all. Other than that, all you have is "power of positive thinking."
Those homosexuals and other lost who "come" to your church? Already on their way to hell, or only after they reject Christ?
Yes, man is born in a lost state. But they are not on their way to hell until they die in their lost state, having rejected Christ. As long as they are alive they have an oppurtunity for salvation.
As far as the "elect", I didn't know for sure if you were Calvinist but I was starting to suspect it by your comments.
Maybe we should all just give up trying to serve God because we are wasting our time on the "non-elect".
Do Calvinists just rip these verses from their Bible?
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It doesn't say "preach the gospel to the "elect", it says to every creature.
It doesn't say "He that is "elect" and is baptized shall be saved"
I have never met a Calvinist that didn't think he was intellectually superior to everyone else. And yet, I have never met one that made any sense either.
Salvation is a spiritual truth based on the Bible, not an academic one based on the teachings of dead midevil Bible "scholars" with too much time on their hands..
Since Christ is alive today, and John Calvin is dead, I choose to believe in and rely on Christ, not Calvin.
John
The "elect" are the members of the body of Christ.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes, man is born in a lost state. But they are not on their way to hell until they die in their lost state, having rejected Christ. As long as they are alive they have an oppurtunity for salvation.
As far as the "elect", I didn't know for sure if you were Calvinist but I was starting to suspect it by your comments.
Maybe we should all just give up trying to serve God because we are wasting our time on the "non-elect".
Do Calvinists just rip these verses from their Bible?
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It doesn't say "preach the gospel to the "elect", it says to every creature.
It doesn't say "He that is "elect" and is baptized shall be saved"
I have never met a Calvinist that didn't think he was intellectually superior to everyone else. And yet, I have never met one that made any sense either.
Salvation is a spiritual truth based on the Bible, not an academic one based on the teachings of dead midevil Bible "scholars" with too much time on their hands..
Since Christ is alive today, and John Calvin is dead, I choose to believe in and rely on Christ, not Calvin.
John
The "elect" are the members of the body of Christ.
I see, you're attacking theologians in the past for their dedication to study of the Word, calling their time therein as "too much time on their hands" and other banter. How shameful. You'll give an account one day for those unecessary words that aren't needed in the discussion here, nor are they needed anywhere.
That's unecessary prattle.
I believe in Christ alone. No need for your "Calvin is dead" and your attempt to color yourself as more spiritual than one (with your false accusation that "you" are following Christ coupled with your implication that "I" am following Calvin) which actually detracts from your self-effort to congratulate yourself as more spiritual.
You sound like the Corinthians here, wherein some followed Paul, Cephas, Apollos...Christ, yet ALL were wrong because all caused division, which is exactly what you are doing.
I find it interesting you accuse and slight others of being or seeming to be more intellectual, all the while you pat yourself on your own back in the midst of your initiative as being more spiritual.
Interesting indeed.
This sheds tons of light upon this whole entire conversation about yourself, and instead of being a commentary on others, it's one on you.
I'm certain you know Pauls indictment upon each of them at Corinth, who also praticed what you are practicing here, so no need for me to reiterate to you where you stand spiritually as he already stated it within the Scriptures.
Paul never thought he wasted his time, but suffered, was imprisoned, and was persecuted specifically for the sake of the elect of God who would be the only ones to believe and be saved. 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
Also, no Calvinist rips out passages from Scripture, they just simply grasp the context within the entire counsel of Gods Word.
The Scriptures you've used? That is what I do, and is also what Calvinists do. We preach the Gospel. His come forward and are saved.
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seekingthetruth
New Member
I see, you're attacking theologians in the past for their dedication to study of the Word, calling their time therein as "too much time on their hands" and other banter. How shameful. You'll give an account one day for those unecessary words that aren't needed in the discussion here, nor are they needed anywhere.
That's unecessary prattle.
I believe in Christ alone. No need for your "Calvin is dead" and your attempt to color yourself as more spiritual than one (with your false accusation that "you" are following Christ coupled with your implication that "I" am following Calvin) which actually detracts from your self-effort to congratulate yourself as more spiritual.
You sound like the Corinthians here, wherein some followed Paul, Cephas, Apollos...Christ, yet ALL were wrong because all caused division, which is exactly what you are doing.
I find it interesting you accuse and slight others of being or seeming to be more intellectual, all the while you pat yourself on your own back in the midst of your initiative as being more spiritual.
Interesting indeed.
This sheds tons of light upon this whole entire conversation about yourself, and instead of being a commentary on others, it's one on you.
I'm certain you know Pauls indictment upon each of them at Corinth, who also praticed what you are practicing here, so no need for me to reiterate to you where you stand spiritually as he already stated it within the Scriptures.
Paul never thought he wasted his time, but suffered, was imprisoned, and was persecuted specifically for the sake of the elect of God who would be the only ones to believe and be saved. 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
Also, no Calvinist rips out passages from Scripture, they just simply grasp the context within the entire counsel of Gods Word.
The Scriptures you've used? That is what I do, and is also what Calvinists do. We preach the Gospel. His come forward and are saved.
I am not ashamed for pointing that Calvinists spend more time studying and preaching John Calvin than they do the Bible. I just call it as I see it.
And no, I don't think that I am spiritually superior, I am just saying that focusing more on John Calvin than on Jesus is projecting an intellectual approach to salvation instead of a spiritual one.
The very first verse most of us learned in Sunday School was John 3:16. "For God so loved the world" It doesn't say He loved only the elect. "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" It doesn't say that only the "chosen" ones should not perish, it says "whosoever", which means "all that will".
Every Calvinist i have ever met has an attitude. They are defensive without cause, they have a chip on their shoulder, and they are always looking to 'correct" someone and start an argument.
When a discussion about the Bible comes up, they usually mention Calvinisim before they do Jesus. Their mission in life is to spread the gospel according to John Calvin, not the gospel according to Christ.
No Preacher, I believe it is you that will have to answer for the false doctrine that you preach, not the believers in Christ and Christ alone.....without John Calvin.
John
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seekingthetruth
New Member
Preacher, you said, "His come forward and are saved"
We are not "His" until we are saved.
John
We are not "His" until we are saved.
John