This assumes He hasn't made His motivation known, a fallacy.
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Does the call of Jonah teach us something about God?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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This assumes He hasn't made His motivation known, a fallacy.
It appears to me that Skandelon is following a pretty good example in asking questions. Could it be Jesus didn't think His questions "meaningless" because He wanted men to use their own God given minds to reason with?
100 "meaningless"that questions Jesus asked the ants:
1. And if you greet your brethren only, what is unusual about that? Do not the unbelievers do the same? (Matt 5:47)
2. Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your lifespan? Matt 6:27
3. Why are you anxious about clothes? Matt 6:28
4. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye yet fail to perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? (Matt 7:2)
5. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? (Matt 7:16)
6. Why are you terrified? (Matt 8:26)
7. Why do you harbor evil thoughts? (Matt 9:4)
8. Can the wedding guests mourn so long as the Bridegroom is with them? (Matt 9:15)
9. Do you believe I can do this? (Matt 9:28)
10. What did you go out to the desert to see? (Matt 11:8)
11. To what shall I compare this generation? (Matt 11:6)
12. Which of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the Sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out? (Matt 12:11)
13. How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and take hold of his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? (Matt 12:29)
14. You brood of vipers! How can you say god things when you are evil? (Matt 12:34)
15. Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? (Matt 12:48)
16. Why did you doubt? (Matt 14:31)
17. And why do you break the commandments of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matt 15:3)
18. How many loaves do you have? (Matt 15:34)
19. Do you not yet understand? (Matt 16:8)
20. Who do people say the Son of Man is? (Matt 16:13)
21. But who do you say that I am? (Matt 16:15)
22. What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life and what can one give in exchange for his life? (Matt 16:26)
23. O faithless and perverse generation how long must I endure you? (Matt 17:17)
24. Why do you ask me about what is good? (Matt 19:16)
25. Can you drink the cup that I am going to drink? (Matt 20:22)
26. What do you want me to do for you? (Matt 20:32)
27. Did you never read the scriptures? (Matt 21:42)
28. Why are you testing me? (Matt 22:18)
29. Blind fools, which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred….the gift of the altar that makes the gift sacred? (Matt 23:17-19)
30. How are you to avoid being sentenced to hell? (Matt 23:33)
31. Why do you make trouble for the woman? (Matt 26:10)
32. Could you not watch for me one brief hour? (Matt 26:40)
33. Do you think I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than 12 legions of angels? (Matt 26:53)
34. Have you come out as against a robber with swords and clubs to seize me? (Matt 26:53)
35. My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)
36. Why are you thinking such things in your heart? (Mark 2:8)
37. Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed rather than on a lamp stand? (Mark 4:21)
38. Who has touched my clothes? (Mark 5:30)
39. Why this commotion and weeping? (Mark 5:39)
40. Are even you likewise without understanding? (Mark 7:18)
41. Why does this generation seek a sign? (Mark 8:12)
42. Do you not yet understand or comprehend? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes and still not see? Ears and not hear? (Mark 8:17-18)
43. How many wicker baskets full of leftover fragments did you pick up? (Mark 8:19)
44. [To the Blind man] Do you see anything? (Mark 8:23)
45. What were arguing about on the way? (Mark 9:33)
46. Salt is good, but what if salt becomes flat? (Mark 9:50)
47. What did Moses command you? (Mark 10:3)
48. Do you see these great buildings? They will all be thrown down. (Mark 13:2)
49. Simon, are you asleep? (Mark 14:37)
50. Why were you looking for me? (Luke 2:49)
51. What are you thinking in your hearts? (Luke 5:22)
52. Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not do what I command? (Luke 6:46)
53. Where is your faith (Luke 8:25)
54. What is your name? (Luke 8:30)
55. Who touched me? (Luke 8:45)
56. Will you be exalted to heaven? (Luke 10:15)
57. What is written in the law? How do you read it? (Luke 10:26)
58. Which of these three in your opinion was neighbor to the robber’s victim? (Luke 10:36)
59. Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside? (Luke 11:40)
60. Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbiter? (Luke 12:14)
61. If even the smallest things are beyond your control, why are you anxious about the rest? (Luke 12:26)
62. Why do you not judge for yourself what is right? (Luke 12:57)
63. What king, marching into battle would not first sit down and decide whether with ten thousand troops he can successfully oppose another king marching upon him with twenty thousand troops? (Luke 14:31)
64. If therefore you are not trustworthy with worldly wealth, who will trust you with true wealth? (Luke 16:11)
65. Has none but this foreigner returned to give thanks to God? (Luke 17:18)
66. Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? (Luke 18:7)
67. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find any faith on earth? (Luke 18:8)
68. For who is greater, the one seated a table or the one who serves? (Luke 22:27)
69. Why are you sleeping? (Luke 22:46)
70. For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry? (Luke 23:31)
71. What are you discussing as you walk along? (Luke 24:17)
72. Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter his glory? (Luke 24:26)
73. Have you anything here to eat? (Luke 24:41)
74. What are you looking for? (John 1:38)
75. How does this concern of your affect me? (John 2:4)
76. You are a teacher in Israel and you do not understand this? (John 3: 10)
77. If I tell you about earthly things and you will not believe, how will you believe when I tell you of heavenly things? (John 3: 12)
78. Do you want to be well? (John 5:6)
79. How is it that you seek praise from one another and not seek the praise that comes from God? (John 5:44)
80. If you do not believe Moses’ writings how will you believe me? (John 5:47)
81. Where can we buy enough food for them to eat? (John 6:5)
82. Does this (teaching of the Eucharist) shock you? (John 6:61)
83. Do you also want to leave me? (John 6:67)
84. Why are you trying to kill me? (John 7:19)
85. Woman where are they, has no one condemned you? (John 8:10)
86. Why do you not understand what I am saying? (John 8:43)
87. Can any of you charge me with sin? (John 8:46)
88. If I am telling you the truth, why do you not believe me? (John 8:46)
89. Are there not twelve hours in a day? (John 11:9)
90. Do you believe this? (John 11:26)
91. Do you realize what I have done for you? (John 13:12)
92. Have I been with you for so long and still you do not know me? (John 14:9)
93. Whom are you looking for? (John 18:4)
94. Shall I not drink the cup the Father gave me? (John 18:11)
95. If I have spoken rightly, why did you strike me? (John 18:23)
96. Do you say [what you say about me] on your own or have others been telling you about me? (John 18:34)
97. Have you come to believe because you have seen me? (John 20:29)
98. Do you love me? (John 21:16)
99. What if I want John to remain until I come? (John 21:22)
100. What concern is it of yours? (John 21:22)
Yes, well you should meditate on the meaning of that last question.
That's the point.
And Jesus and Skan are not on the same level.
And???
I have breath of my own, too. But It is ultimately Gods and he is in total control of it.
So what's your point?
Did you read what I wrote?
Herald said:
There are places in scripture where God does reveal His motivation. In those areas where He does not reveal His motivation we engage in fruitless speculation.
man has self will that is bound by sin.Regerate man has self will that is now enabled to begin to submit to God in truth.He is still"able" to sin...but no longer bound by its power.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
The point was made in the rest of my post that you failed to answer... Here I'll copy and paste it for you:
If what you claim is true your sentence should read, "God changes His will for the man however He pleases." Man doesn't have a will in your system...he has a instinctive reflexive response maybe, but not a will.
To suggest that a circumstance changed Jonah's will presupposes that Jonah had a will to be changed. And according to your system (where God is 'sovereignly in control' over Jonah's will prior to that circumstance), you have God merely changing His own will for what Jonah would desire and thus choose. He is not changing Jonah's will, because for it to be Jonah's it would have to be independent of God's...and you have rejected that, remember?
Their wills? You mean the wills that God predetermined for them to have in the first place? Those wills? So God is breaking the will that he determined to be hard, and/or strengthen the wills that he determined to be soft.
And I addressed the whole post by exposing the flaw of your premise- that man can't have a will of his own and God be in total control of it at the same time.
I have breath of my own but it really belongs to God and he does with it whatsoever he wills.
Jonah had his own will. God can mold it howsoever he chooses.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Ok, I'll play along with your limited and unrelated analogy. You would agree that every breath you are taking is God's doing. So, what would be the point in God sending you circumstance to make you breathe when he is already in control of your breathing. That is the point you are not addressing.
You are not addressing the PURPOSE or EFFECTIVENESS of the means God uniquely employes in your system. It's like a puppeteer attempting to claim that the stage props that he set up caused the puppet to do something. EVERYTHING the puppet does is caused by the puppet master, so why on earth would the puppet master attempt to misguide people to think the props that he set out caused something? It's silly. The puppet master is determining the choices of the puppet regardless of the circumstances of the stage props put in his way...the stage props are just that...PROPS for a show, just like MEANS are in your deterministic world view.
Another, "Why would God..." question.
I don't know why God uses gravity to hold us on the earth instead making all living creatures have suction cups on their feet?
Why would God use the sun for light and warmth when he could have hung a massive fireplace and LED bulb out there upon nothing?
Why would God _____________... is pointless.
It is this mental flaw of yours that keeps you ARminian.
When you stop worrying so much about WHY God did what he did and start concerning yourself with what the Bible SAYS he does- you'll be a Calvinist for real this time.
They DO. When the puppet sits down the chair prop holds him up. That was predetermined to happen before the show began and it is an environmental factor that causes things to happen to the puppet.
No problem there.
Why would God...
You can't go three SENTENCES without trying to use that as an argument.
A QUESTION is not an argument.
And that may be the most meaningless question in the universe.
You only ask that when the answer is already given IN THE BIBLE.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And no point in God "making you whine against His work" in sparing the city - only to have to "reason with you " via gourd and worm trying to get you to see the justice and mercy of God in sparing the city.
Why use strictly Arminian methods if the Calvinist "master programmer" is the real way things work? Makes no sense.
If God is causing you to think your ever thought - programming your thoughts and words direct from heaven - then what a great robot-maker but not a very good "intelligent life maker".
Furthermore - the one that makes the rifle and then shoots the rifle at people is to blame for what happens since He absolutely caused it all - you cannot blame the mindless machine being used in that scenario.
One that in the case of Calvinism cannot even think for itself let alone take ownership of what it does as if it chose something.
"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1
"O Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills ... .how I wanted to spare your children ... but YOU would not!" Matt 23
in Christ,
Bob
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Seems you conveniently forgot the point or are trying to distort it.
You really think that was the point??? You haven't taken that class on Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills yet like I suggested, have you? :laugh:
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Your position does not teach corporately or individually that election is to salvation but rather salvation is to election. The way you interpret the parable of the wedding clearly proves this. You make election in eternity past determinated by future events rather than future events determined by election in eternity past. You can keep denying this, or keep on trying to confuse the issues but that is the indisputable bottom line and your interpretation of the wedding parable proves it.
Why play this silly game of denial???? We are talking about cause versus consequence in relationship to election (corporate or individual) and your position is that election is consequential whereas justifying faith is causal.
It makes no difference about whether God chose Jews and gentiles in any preferrential order as that has nothing to do with election "to salvation" as salvation is ALWAYS INDIVIDUAL and NEVER CORPORATE.
There is no circular reasoning going on by either one of of us so this charge is nonsense. You are simply attempting to create confusion and divorce individual salvation from election when election is "to salvation" and salvation is NEVER CORPORATE at any level but always individual.
More nonsense! There are only two classifications of mankind since Jacob and that is Jew and Gentiles and the covenant of savation has always included both. Preverential treatment of one over the others depending upon the specific time period has nothing to do with salvation as salvation is ALWAYS INDIVIDUAL and NEVER CORPORATE at any time. Thus "election to salvation" is and must be INDIVIDUAL as there is no such thing as corporate salvation and election is "to salvation."
Why play this silly game? You are confusing election to salvation with election to preferential treatment and/or a preferential order in bringing the elect "to salvation." The parable of the Wedding does not support your view in the least! It demonstrates the worthlessness of the general call as the general call in the wedding parable produced N
NE and NO PROPERLY DRESSED guest. Only the effectual call produced properly dressed guests or when they were sent out to "COMPEL" them to come in. This has nothing to do with any kind of CORPORATE election or salvation as neither exist except in a perverted imagination.Seems you conveniently forgot the point or are trying to distort it.
You really think that was the point??? You haven't taken that class on Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills yet like I suggested, have you? :laugh:
Benji, Benji, Benji.
We've already established that you don't know what logic is and that I've had more training in it than you.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Here is an article that I found to be quite informative on the subject of election.
http://www.douglashamp.com/why-god-...vation-and-commonly-is-a-reference-to-israel/
http://www.douglashamp.com/why-god-...vation-and-commonly-is-a-reference-to-israel/
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Very true! The use of outward means that are said to provoke or convince man to change their minds makes NO SENSE in a deterministic worldview. It would be like a guy with a puppet on one hand and a cattle prod on the other saying that the prod is his way to get the puppet to do what he wants. It's silly.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Continually stating a falsehood over and over while ignoring your opponents own claims about his own view isn't helpful and doesn't make what you say true.
I don't even know what salvation to election would look like. How is one saved PRIOR to being granted entrance into the banquet? Do you really think that we believe the person attired in wedding clothes was saved prior to being chosen to enter by the king? No one believes that.
1. There is no past/present/future to an eternal/infinite being, so such finite reason becomes meaningless conjecture.
2. This argument IGNORES the point that there are more aspects to election than the choice to allow those properly clothed to enter. It ignores that there was a choice to send the invitation (i.e. graft in) first to the Jew and then the Gentile.
Yes, exactly. The time frame called 'before the foundation of the world' is being experienced by God right now, as is the creation week, the crucifixion, the Reformation, and whatever is happening 100, 500, 1000 years from now. There is no such thing as God "looking down the corridors of time to see who is going to be saved" and I really, really wish Calvinists would quit bringing up stuff that most non-Cals don't believe in and then smack it down as if they are winning an argument.
These sorts of arguments are full of straw.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
:applause::applause::applause:
No, logic is necessary truth.
Something can't BE something and NOT be that something at the same time.
If it can then nothing anybody says means anything. There is no point in discussing anything. There is no objective truth.
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