Does the Epistle to the Ephesians Prove the Reformed Are illogical & Unreason

[Dave G]

I cannot imagine a Reformed believer agreeing that the whole world can be reconciled while they hold on to a doctrine called "limited atonement," can you?

No, I cannot.

Romans 5 and 2 Cor 5 both make the case that the world is reconciled to God by the death of his Son, who is Jesus Christ. Why don't they believe the scriptures there?

They do. They just happen to believe, as I do, that the "world" spoken of in 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the "world" of believers...
The saved, the ones whose trespasses are not imputed to them.

In other words, the ones saved out of every tongue, tribe and nation.

 

[Dave G]

I can imagine one of them having an answer, maybe something like your smug answer and pass it off with a big full face grin like he is the smartest fellow in the room and in the next breath say that God only saves the predestinated and that is just a few of many.

I can't speak for them, but I'm not trying to be smug...
Only to relate on how and why I believe the Bible similarly to them, at least in many cases.

What kind of logic would that be?

Faith and logic are two entirely different approaches to God's word, wouldn't you say?
For example, logic dictates that Mary could not possibly have been a virgin and still have given birth to the Lord, yet faith in God's word defies that same human logic.

Aren't you tired of these fellows thinking every one is as dumb as they are and never think?

That thought never crossed my mind, JD.
I look at what the Scriptures say, what they say, and happen to agree with them on many points.

 

[JD731]

By God's grace I understood the whole of the epistle, without ever having had to read the Book of Acts.

I do not believe you understand the epistle at all. And I know one cannot understand the epistle as a stand alone letter and I know that one cannot understand the "mystery of Christ" which is the theme of this epistle without divine revelation. I know that because the scriptures says so.

Here is what Paul said in his salutation.

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

The mention is two distinct entities in Ephesus. They are two different racial groups, both of whom are equally the sons of God and are equal as sons of God in the body of Christ. However, they remain distinct in the body. Now Paul will use a very common marriage act in this epistle to illustrate this truth that two can be one and yet remain different functionally.

Mt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mr 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Now the "saints" in Ephesians represents the first group, the Jews. They were first in the body as is said in Eph 1:12. Later the gentiles were added to the church and they are the "faithful in Christ Jesus." This is how the history in the Acts unfolded and Eph 1:13 is the beginning of the explanation of God accepting the gentiles into the church as equal with the Jews. When I quote this passage I am going to ask you to define the word "both" by naming each of the two if you agree that it takes TWO to have both. Then I am going to ask you to make a distinction between those who are called strangers and pilgrims and why are the "saints" not strangers and pilgrims? Take a look;

14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, (two becomes one - are you getting this?) so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners (this is the one of the two groups who were strangers and foreigners in Ephesus in Asia), but fellowcitizens (to be a fellow there must be at least two) with the saints, and of the household of God;
(The saints are the Jewish believers) Paul counts himself in this first group, saints, because he is a Jew. He was born in Cilicia which is a province there.

Ac 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city (Jerusalem) at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
(Paul was not a Jew because he was born in Tarsus, he was a Jew because he was of the tribe of Benjamin, one of the two southern tribes who was still a nation when this was written in 60 AD.

There are two groups being addressed and referenced in Ephesians. Saints and faithful in Christ Jesus = Jews and gentile believers. The gentile believers are for the most part, but not exclusively (Timothy was not of Israel stock and therefore was not a stranger and foreigner although he was from Ephesus) from the ten tribes of Israel.. These gentiles in this region were of the ten tribe that was the Northern Kingdom of Israel and was displaced out of their land in 722 BC. It was at that time they ceased being the people of God and were counted as gentiles, cut off from their covenants and outside their own land. Read Hosea one for the initial curse and Romans 9 for the fulfillment of God's promise on these people to have mercy on them and to makes them his sons. This could only happen through our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are going to have to acquaint yourself with the Bible's history to get a grasp on this most wonderful epistle. This plan of God, the mystery of Christ is said by angelic beings and men as being the wisdom of God.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[JD731]

"A man cannot sin unless he acts in sovereignty because that is the definition of sin"

LOL, what an absurd unbiblical bit of nonsense!!!

A man cannot sin unless God allows humanity to sin. That is a valid statement.

Is the idea that Reformed believe in "Total Spiritual Inability" and therefore public ministry does not actually impact and alter the lives of those who accept the Good News. For example, there would be no need to "harden" the hearts of the unbelieving Jews as they would have no ability to accept the gospel because they have not spiritual ability?​

"A man cannot sin unless he acts in sovereignty because that is the definition of sin"

LOL, what an absurd unbiblical bit of nonsense!!!

A man cannot sin unless God allows humanity to sin. That is a valid statement.

Is the idea that Reformed believe in "Total Spiritual Inability" and therefore public ministry does not actually impact and alter the lives of those who accept the Good News. For example, there would be no need to "harden" the hearts of the unbelieving Jews as they would have no ability to accept the gospel because they have not spiritual ability?​

When the serpent appeared in the garden and tempted Eve to eat of the forbidden tree it was not because God had not provided for all the needs they have. That would have been absurd. He tempted her with the possibility of being a god. This required that she reject the sovereignty of God and elevate herself as sovereign over her realm.

This is the reason men go to hell. The first sin they commit makes them a god. A man has no excuse. The law of God is written in the conscience of every man and whenaman violates his own consciousness of right and wrong, he sins against God and becomes his own God. He is following the dictates of his own heart, his own will, his own desires.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

In death, hell, the lake of fire, this god will be isolated, alone, all by himself, and he will be challenged to create his own universe because he will begin with the same circumstance that God began with in Gen 1:1, nothing. Think about how God defines Hell. Think about the graphic picture that he gave of it by Jesus hanging on the cross. All the characteristics of Hell were on display there on that tree. It had to be that way because Jesus Christ, the son of man was enduring the penalty of sin in our place. If you wonder what hell is actually like, take a look at the cross.

God does all things right. It is only right if men reject his sovereignty and establish their own that God gives them the opportunity of a god, creating their own universe and make all the rules.

Isaiah 41:23
Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.



Psa 82:`1 God (elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohiym).
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (elohiym); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

A prayer:

8 Arise, O God (elohiym), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

This Psalm is applied to the scribes and Pharisees in John 10. These must be the elohiym during the ministry of Jesus Christ because he quoted it to them and applied it to them.

Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

I have posted this to show that I have basis for my statement that a poster called nonsense. I was not making things up. If anyone thinks I have taken scripture out of context or otherwise misapplied the word of God, let him correct me with the scriptures and not a wild statement of "nonsense."

 

[Van]

SNIP This required that she [EVE] reject the sovereignty of God and elevate herself as sovereign over her realm.
SNIP
The first sin they [humans] commit makes them a god.
SNIP
I have posted this to show that I have basis for my statement that a poster called nonsense. I was not making things up. If anyone thinks I have taken scripture out of context or otherwise misapplied the word of God, let him correct me with the scriptures and not a wild statement of "nonsense."

1) You did not say Sin is defined as acting against the will (Sovereignty) of God. You said "in" not "against." Thus nonsense!!

2) Acting against the One True God, does not make humans into "gods." But it does make them sinners who sin.

3) I did not say nor suggest your statement was taken out of context, I said it was nonsense.

4) Note JD731 still has not answered my question:

Is the idea that Reformed believe in "Total Spiritual Inability" and therefore public ministry does not actually impact and alter the lives of those who accept the Good News. For example, there would be no need to "harden" the hearts of the unbelieving Jews as they would have no ability to accept the gospel because they have not spiritual ability?​

 

[JD731]

1) You did not say Sin is defined as acting against the will (Sovereignty) of God. You said "in" not "against." Thus nonsense!!

2) Acting against the One True God, does not make humans into "gods." But it does make them sinners who sin.

3) I did not say nor suggest your statement was taken out of context, I said it was nonsense.

4) Note JD731 still has not answered my question:

Is the idea that Reformed believe in "Total Spiritual Inability" and therefore public ministry does not actually impact and alter the lives of those who accept the Good News. For example, there would be no need to "harden" the hearts of the unbelieving Jews as they would have no ability to accept the gospel because they have not spiritual ability?​

Your question makes no sense to me. You asked this question when I was discussing the providence of God. God put this particular man on the throne of Israel for the expressed (it was expressed in Romans 9) purpose of carrying out his will. He did not put him there via miracles but through the course of events of his life and the circumstances of his times.

How did God harden Pharoah's heart? Was it through the counsel of his advisers? Was it by the influence of wicked spirits that God sent? How was it?

You kinda operate in your own world and I do not understand it.

 

[tyndale1946]

First of all I'm not reformed but Sovereign Grace and the term is not Total Spiritual Inability it is Total Depravity and unless one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit alone or as the termed used quickened, they have no need of Christ because they are dead... And this OP does not belong here and I have no idea why the poster posted it here... If it's related to the reformed brethren, where does it go?... I'm saying to the moderators it should be moved, if not the OP is illogical... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[JD731]

Group #1 - Saints in Ephesus = Jewish Christians in 60 AD
Group #2 - Faithful in Christ Jesus = gentile Christians in Ephesus in 60 AD

Which group is predestinated?

Is it group #1?
Is it group #2?
Is it both Groups?
Is it neither group?

Which member of the Godhead is the main character in Ephesians

1) Is it God the Father?
2) Is it God the Son?
3) Is it God the Holy Spirit?

What does predestinate mean?

1) Does predestinated mean that one has been predetermined to be what?

1) Saved from the penalty of sin?
2) Saved from the power of sin?
3) Saved from the possibility of personal sins
$) All of the above?
5) None of the above?

When considering that earthly possessions and advantages are not under consideration in Ephesians, but heavenly places. are there any differences we should note in the first 12 verses as opposed to the remainder of the chapter?

Does the personal pronouns used in the first 12 verses suggest that he is a member of the first group in Ephesus and the verse following are dealing with the group that is the second group, the faithful in Christ Jesus = the gentile believers?

Here are the personal pronouns in verse 1 - 12;

1) Verse 3 - Blessed US
2) Verse 4 - As he has chosen US - That WE
3) Verse 5 - Having predestinated US
4) Verse 6 - he has made US accepted in the Beloved
5) Verse 7 - In whom WE have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins
7) Verse 8 - He hath abounded toward US
8) Verse 9 - Having made known unto US
9) Verse 11 - We have obtained an inheritance
10) Verse 12 - WE should be to the praise of his glory
___________________________________________

11) Verse 13 - YE also trusted - After that YE heard the word of truth - the gospel of YOUR salvation - Also after YE believed - Ye were sealed

12) Verse 14 - Which (the holy Spirit of promise) is the earnest (guarantee) of OUR inheritance

13) Verse15 - After I heard of YOUR faith
14) Verse 16 - Cease not to give thanks for YOU
15) Verse 17 - May give unto YOU the spirit of wisdom
16) Verse 18 - The eyes of YOUR understanding - That YE may know what is the hope of his calling
_____________________________________________

19) Verse 19 - what is the exceeding greatness of his (God the Father's) power to US-WARD, (meaning both groups) who believe

Following in the chapter is highlighting God the Father's mighty power he wrought on behalf of both groups through Christ.

It would make sense to me if God the Father had a plan that included two distinct groups that he intended to make the same and as one in a body though their past history was anathema to one another, he would write of his intention and how he would accomplish it and what it all meant, wouldn't you?

Think about this dear reader and if you have questions we can talk about it.

The first group was given it through the principle of promises made beforehand and the second group was given it through the principle of grace because there were no promises of God to them.

 

[Dave G]

I know one cannot understand the epistle as a stand alone letter and I know that one cannot understand the "mystery of Christ" which is the theme of this epistle without divine revelation. I know that because the scriptures says so.

JD,
Yes, I can understand the epistle just fine; But I didn't always.
I found that I had to do what the Lord told me to do and to study His word constantly in order to rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ), and that takes time...it didn't just come to me overnight, nor does it come to any of His children overnight.


That said, I think it best that I take my leave of this thread, since going by what you've written thus far, I can see that you and I are not in agreement about many things that God has to say, and it's not limited to just the epistle to the Ephesians;
Yes, we might be similar in some areas, and but in the end vastly different in others.

For example, I doubt we'd get past the first chapter without running into major differences on how we see the text.
To me ( and as I've said before ) Ephesians 1 tells me that the believers at Ephesus, as well as every true believer in the body of Christ, were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated to their adoption as children of God.

You would probably call this, "Calvinism", at least in the "theological" sense, but I call it the truth...
and I get it by simply reading and believing what the words actually state.

I don't think there's any reason to go into the rest of it, since we'd probably disagree on some, if not much, of what it says there, too.


I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you as greatly as He has me.

 

[JD731]

First of all I'm not reformed but Sovereign Grace and the term is not Total Spiritual Inability it is Total Depravity and unless one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit alone or as the termed used quickened, they have no need of Christ because they are dead... And this OP does not belong here and I have no idea why the poster posted it here... If it's related to the reformed brethren, where does it go?... I'm saying to the moderators it should be moved, if not the OP is illogical... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I think you need to chill. This part of the Baptist Board is titled as such;


Forums>Baptist Debate Forums (Baptist Only)>Baptist Theology & Bible Study

I am a Baptist and I hope you are a Baptist since this is a Baptist only debate forum. More people who post on this forum are Reformed than those who are not Reformed. I think I am right about that. There is such a thing as Reformed Baptists. and sovereign Grace Baptists are just another name for Reformed if you ask me.

I purposely have used the term "reformed" and not "Calvinists" though there is little difference in them. Good luck having the moderators move this op. It is legitimate and it will force you to answer some questions you have not been asked yet. One of those questions when I get to chapter 2 is why the pronouns force one to consider that only the gentiles at this time were saved from the penalty of their sins by the principle of grace and Paul, who is a member of the other group makes no claim to that. Those who begin their study in Ephesians 2:8 are never asked that question. I will quote it for you and you may begin to brush up.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

He did not say "by grace are "we" saved.

Now that is not the first use of that designation in chapter two. Notice how he is designating the two groups in this manner through the whole chapter. Ignoring this is disingenuous. Paul is not claiming the saints are saved by grace. They are saved in those days under the principle of "promise." God had made covenants with them that he came to fulfill.

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So settle down and be ready to defend yourself because I am attacking your doctrines with the hope you will be able to see the truths that are being presented here.

Here is something to read concerning the first group, the saints.

Ro 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Put this in your memory bank. It was true in AD 58 when it was written and it is still true today. Nothing has changed about this. Gentiles have just been made the Partakers of the spiritual benefits of Christ's coming because Israel refused them.

 

[JD731]

JD,
Yes, I can understand the epistle just fine; But I didn't always.
I found that I had to do what the Lord told me to do and to study His word constantly in order to rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ), and that takes time...it didn't just come to me overnight, nor does it come to any of His children overnight.


That said, I think it best that I take my leave of this thread, since going by what you've written thus far, I can see that you and I are not in agreement about many things that God has to say, and it's not limited to just the epistle to the Ephesians;
Yes, we might be similar in some areas, and but in the end vastly different in others.

For example, I doubt we'd get past the first chapter without running into major differences on how we see the text.
To me ( and as I've said before ) Ephesians 1 tells me that the believers at Ephesus, as well as every true believer in the body of Christ, were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated to their adoption as children of God.

You would probably call this, "Calvinism", at least in the "theological" sense, but I call it the truth...
and I get it by simply reading and believing what the words actually state.

I don't think there's any reason to go into the rest of it, since we'd probably disagree on some, if not much, of what it says there, too.


I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you as greatly as He has me.

Very well Dave G. It is a good time to exit because there are some hard questions coming up that will challenge you. I have just posted a passage from Romans that says that the promises, including salvation which is the context of the words, was to Israel. If the promise of salvation pertained to Israel, how did you get elected, being a gentile, from before the foundation of the world? According to Ephesians 1:13, the gentiles were added at a later date into the purpose of God for this age. Here, read it for yourself;

Eph 1:12 That we (the saints= group #1) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory..

If group #1 was first to trust in Christ and group #2 "also" trusted in Christ, does that not mean that group #2 trusted him at a later date than group #1? Isn't that consistent with the historical record in the Acts? The apostles and prophets preached to the Israelites in Jerusalem and Judaea only for the first 7 years or until Acts 8. They were the only people commissioned to preach the gospel at that time. The reason for this is because signs and wonders and miracles MUST accompany the preaching and these were the only men who were so gifted to confirm their message with signs following.

You will need some Bible proof that this is true. Here it is;

Now watch the word "first" and the progression.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

You will find that after this many preached it but without the signs. The people who preached in Ephesus and the regions round about had the sign gifts. Paul, Peter, and James, John, and Jude wrote letters to these people after they preached to them and exercised their sign gifts.

Ac 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

After the Jerusalem apostolic counsel to determine what part of the law gentiles were obliged to keep a decision was reached and Silas was sent to the churches to deliver the message and here is what is said about him.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

How would a reasonable man conclude how they confirmed them? Yes, with signs following the words they brought to them.

 

[Van]

First of all I'm not reformed but Sovereign Grace and the term is not Total Spiritual Inability it is Total Depravity and unless one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit alone or as the termed used quickened, they have no need of Christ because they are dead... And this OP does not belong here and I have no idea why the poster posted it here... If it's related to the reformed brethren, where does it go?... I'm saying to the moderators it should be moved, if not the OP is illogical... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Did this poster say which of the Five Points of the TULIP he believes are bogus? Nope
Did this poster say Total Spiritual Inability is not the same as Total Depravity? Nope
Did this post claim a spiritually dead person has "no need" of Christ? Yes

Then Ephesians 2:1-3 is posted as if refuting "Limited Spiritual Ability" of those "spiritually dead." And of course the passage does not!
Does God make alive spiritually dead individuals. You bet.
Does God choose the individuals to be made alive through faith in the truth? You bet
Does God seal those transferred into Christ with the Holy Spirit? You bet
Could individuals be "elect" (for salvation) and still be children of wrath, as we all were? Nope

Thus the very passage cited demonstrates Total Spiritual Inability (AKA Total Depravity) is bogus.

 

[JD731]

Did this poster say which of the Five Points of the TULIP he believes are bogus? Nope
Did this poster say Total Spiritual Inability is not the same as Total Depravity? Nope
Did this post claim a spiritually dead person has "no need" of Christ? Yes

Then Ephesians 2:1-3 is posted as if refuting "Limited Spiritual Ability" of those "spiritually dead." And of course the passage does not!
Does God make alive spiritually dead individuals. You bet.
Does God choose the individuals to be made alive through faith in the truth? You bet
Does God seal those transferred into Christ with the Holy Spirit? You bet
Could individuals be "elect" (for salvation) and still be children of wrath, as we all were? Nope

Thus the very passage cited demonstrates Total Spiritual Inability (AKA Total Depravity) is bogus.

Why not address "this poster?"

I do not know if total depravity is the same as total spiritual inability. If either was a Bible doctrine I would have a biblical based opinion but since they are not you will have to ask the man who made the doctrines up.

I am saying now that the 5 points of the TULIP are bogus. This should clear that point up for you.

I would like for you to quote me saying what you charged here;

Did this post claim a spiritually dead person has "no need" of Christ? Yes

Now my question in the op is this;

Does the Epistle to the Ephesians Prove the Reformed Are illogical & Unreasonable

The epistle to the Ephesians contains key points for the Reformed faith. However, a faithful study and trust in the words of this epistle will actually refute the doctrines advanced by the Reformed and show them to be false. My whole design for this op is not to argue for the sake of arguing but to present the truth in order to help the Reformed who will apply logic and reason in the context of the historical narrative. The gentiles in this epistle, those residing in the region of Asia and Ephesus, are called by Paul "strangers and foreigners." Figure that one out.

 

[JD731]

It is God the Father who elected Jesus Christ in eternity past. Therefore it is Jesus Christ who is the elect of God. This epistle to the Ephesians, along with Romans chapters 7 through 11, will answer the questions of not only why God included the gentiles with the few believing Jews in the body of Christ but it will also reveal his "purpose" for the church that he determined before the creation of the world.Obviously if God the Father is forming a body for the Son that he has already elected beforehand, and he is doing it from an element from the body of his Son, and his purpose is that once it is formed to bring the son and his help meet together in a marriage so that the two would be one in reality.

There is a pattern for this with Adam, who was in the paradise of God with God. He is called in Luke 3:38 as the son of God. God took from his body a rib and created the woman after he had put Adam to sleep. Then he performed a wedding and they were married and taken to Fathers house. This is what predestination means in the context of Romans and Ephesians. It was the intention of God the Father to include the Jews only in this body during this age we are now living in but they refused to come. Therfore God included gentiles and sent out heralds to bid them to come. The body is still in the process of being formed.

Matt 23:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them (Jews) again by parables, and said, (this is a prophecy).

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.(Acts 2 - 7)
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. (Acts 10)
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The wedding garment speaks of the righteousness of Christ that one must put on.

You will notice in the parable that the city was burned before those who were bidden were cast away and a different set of guests were invited. Both bad and good attended. This is saves and lost in the professing church, the body of christ.

 

[JD731]

Where are the Reformed believers who can synchronize the words of this epistle with other words in the scriptures and make sense out of the mysteries of the faith? If God can make the believers in Jesus Christ equal with Jesus Christ, at least in his own mind, and he does this by making the believers, whoever they are, to be the body of Christ collectively. That is the manner in which God sees us in this age. Those who are in the church are, like Jesus Christ, sons of God, through a new birth. Jesus Christ is the "firstborn" son of God from the dead. This means he was dead while his body was in the tomb until be was born of God. Was he like the Reformed defines being dead? Totally depraved? Of course not.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Just WOW!

Then, if that is not enough God the Father makes the believer in Christ, not only a son of God like Jesus and in the same way, by indwelling his physical body with the Spirit of God, but he makes the believers to be joint heirs with Jesus Christ. Let me say that again; God the Father has made those who are in the body of Christ to be JOINT HEIRS with Jesus Christ throughout eternity.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Again I must say WOW!

Now, take a look at Col 1:18 again because there is a debate among branches of Christianity about when the church had it's beginning. Col 1:18 settles the matter. If Jesus Christ is the beginning of the church when he was raised from the dead by the indwelling Spirit and was the first one to be born of the Spirit, of which all following believers in him becomes sons of God by likewise being born of the Spirit.

Now back to the epistle to the Ephesians. We know when the church began to be formed and Ephesians tell us when and why and how the gentiles were added at a later date.

Now there is a much deeper truth in this letter that I have not touched on yet. I may do that later after we finish this part of our discussion. What I want you to get from this post is that God does not see the believer in Christ as isolated from him but he sees us as Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is perfect.

Consider this part of the high priestly prayer of Jesus Christ to the Father on the eve of his crucifixion. Now I say the the Father answered the prayer of the Son. What do you say dear reader?

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

The above whom he is praying for are his apostles and prophets.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Now he is praying for all who will be saved through their word. They preached the word and then they wrote it and I have read it and I believe the word.

So following is the purpose. So they will be one with the Father and the Son as the Father and the Son are one.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

This is just incredible.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This will be the result when we are glorified with the new body together.

 

[JD731]

Ephesians 1: 1;12 puts the emphasis on the act of God the Father placing the believers "in Christ." God the Father has chosen Christ in eternity past to fulfill the purpose of this age. That purpose is explained in this letter to be the formation of body of Christ. We learn as early as verse 13 that he is including the gentiles to be in this body and to be equal with those who have promises from God, the Jews, even if they received this blessing at a later time and under a different principle. This epistle explains the doctrine of grace more thouroughly than any other part of the scriptures.

A look at the phrase "in Christ" in the scriptures. In the KJV Bible this phrase appears 78 times in 77 verses. Those other translations that I have checked generally have this phrase several more times than does the KJV and the numbers do not seem to connect anything symbolically. Therefore the symbolism of the number 7 is corrupted in these other translations. Complete things are noted by God with the number 7 and when one has the numbers together it is for emphasis, like when Jesus said "verily, verily." The number 8 is the symbolic number in scriptures for new things and the church is a new man according to Ephesians 4. our standing in Christ is to be complete in him.

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

So, we will look through verse 12 of Eph 1 at the deeds of the Father.

V 3 - God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
V 4 - 4 According as he <God the Father> hath chosen us in him <in Christ> before the foundation of the world, <Why> that we should be holy and without blame before him <God the Father> in love:

Obviously, If Jesus Christ is without blame before God the Father and someone is "in him" it is reasonable to conclude that even if they had blame before, they couldn't have any blame now because Christ doesn't.

V 5 < God the Father> Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself <God the Father>, according to the good pleasure of his will, <predestinated unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself>
V 6 To the praise of the glory of his < God the Father's > grace, wherein he <God the Father> hath made us accepted in the beloved <the beloved is Christ>
V 7 In whom < in Christ > we have redemption through his < Jesus Christ's > blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his < God the Father's > grace;.
V 8 Wherein < in grace > he < God the Father > hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
V 9 < God the Father > Having made known unto us the mystery of his <God the father's > will, according to his < God the Father's > good pleasure which he <God the Father > hath purposed in himself < God the Father >
V10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he < God the Father > might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him < in Christ >



V 11 In whom < in Christ > also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him <God the Father > who worketh all things after the counsel of his < God the Father's > own will:
V 12 That we should be to the praise of his < God the Father's > glory, who first trusted in Christ.

< Transition from we and ours to ye and yours>

13 In whom < in Christ . ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit < first mention in the epistle of God the Spirt > of promise,
14 Which < the holy Spirit of promise > is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession < the physical body Compare Ro 8:15 with Ro 8:23 >, unto the praise of his < God the Father's > glory.

Praise of God the Father's glory
V6
V12
V14

The trinitarian signature in the passage.

This epistle is about God the Father and how he is providentially working out an eternal predetermined purpose in time for this age and we can see he is not accepting anyone except those who are in Christ, that is in his body, which we will see is defined as the church of Jesus Christ on the earth. We will see on what basis he included gentiles who have no previous promises from God but were made partakers of the Jewish promises IN Christ. There are connections to typelogy in scripture that has pictured this. There is a marriage ahead and several of the parables of Jesus in the last weeks of his earthly ministry mentions a marriage supper. See Eph 5.

I cannot see where the Reformed doctrines are supported at all in this passage. Do you?

 

[Van]

Why not address "this poster?"

I do not know if total depravity is the same as total spiritual inability. If either was a Bible doctrine I would have a biblical based opinion but since they are not you will have to ask the man who made the doctrines up.

I am saying now that the 5 points of the TULIP are bogus. This should clear that point up for you.

I would like for you to quote me saying what you charged here;

Now my question in the op is this;

Does the Epistle to the Ephesians Prove the Reformed Are illogical & Unreasonable

The epistle to the Ephesians contains key points for the Reformed faith. However, a faithful study and trust in the words of this epistle will actually refute the doctrines advanced by the Reformed and show them to be false. My whole design for this op is not to argue for the sake of arguing but to present the truth in order to help the Reformed who will apply logic and reason in the context of the historical narrative. The gentiles in this epistle, those residing in the region of Asia and Ephesus, are called by Paul "strangers and foreigners." Figure that one out.

The post where you falsely claim I charged you was addressed to someone else. I charged the other poster, not you, with saying:

First of all I'm not reformed but Sovereign Grace and the term is not Total Spiritual Inability it is Total Depravity and unless one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit alone or as the termed used quickened, they have no need of Christ because they are dead...​

Secondly, you did not identify what in Ephesians proved the falsehood of the Reformed doctrine, only the ambiguous "refute the doctrines" and "show them to be false."

Thirdly the address found in Ephesians 2:19 is explained clearly in Ephesians 2:12.

 

[JD731]

The post where you falsely claim I charged you was addressed to someone else. I charged the other poster, not you, with saying:

First of all I'm not reformed but Sovereign Grace and the term is not Total Spiritual Inability it is Total Depravity and unless one is regenerated by the Holy Spirit alone or as the termed used quickened, they have no need of Christ because they are dead...​

Secondly, you did not identify what in Ephesians proved the falsehood of the Reformed doctrine, only the ambiguous "refute the doctrines" and "show them to be false."

Thirdly the address found in Ephesians 2:19 is explained clearly in Ephesians 2:12.

Well, all I can say is, I'll be!

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

When was that time?
Here are 5 things said about the "ye" in this epistle that is not said about the "we."

1) At some particular time ye were without Christ
2) Ye were aliens from the commonwelath (whatever that is) of Israel
3) Ye were strangers from the covenants of promise
4) Having no hope
5) ye were without God in the world.

Since we are on the subject let's notice how many times the number 2 is referenced in this chapter just from verse 12.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we
have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I have identified the two groups by agreeing with Ep 1:1 where we are told that Paul is writing to the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus with whom they are in fellowship together in the church at Ephesus. It is important to know who these people are because it will open our eyes to some wonderful truth. Peter and James and John wrote to these same people and they were ministers to the circumcision according to Ga 2. Paul was the minister to the gentiles and both wrote to these peopls. Peter wrote to the strangers scattered and so did James. They did not write to church fellowships, but Paul did. It was exactly who he wrote to. One must ask questions of the text and then be redy to accept the answr when it comes.

James opens his letter like this;

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2 My brethren,

He sure is not writing to two groups and he is not writing to the churches. I remind you that when he wrote this, the first NT epistle, written in 45 AD, Judah was still a nation in her land. It is important to know who these gentiles in these provinces are.

I will tell you who they are later.

 

[Van]

Well, all I can say is, I'll be!
SNIP
Since we are on the subject let's notice how many times the number 2 is referenced in this chapter just from verse 12.
SNIP
I have identified the two groups by agreeing with Ep 1:1 where we are told that Paul is writing to the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus with whom they are in fellowship together in the church at Ephesus. It is important to know who these people are because it will open our eyes to some wonderful truth. Peter and James and John wrote to these same people and they were ministers to the circumcision according to Ga 2. Paul was the minister to the gentiles and both wrote to these peopls. Peter wrote to the strangers scattered and so did James. They did not write to church fellowships, but Paul did. It was exactly who he wrote to. One must ask questions of the text and then be redy to accept the answr when it comes.
SNIP
He [Jame] sure is not writing to two groups and he is not writing to the churches. I remind you that when he wrote this, the first NT epistle, written in 45 AD, Judah was still a nation in her land. It is important to know who these gentiles in these provinces are.
I will tell you who they are later.

And this post is in response to:

Secondly, you did not identify what in Ephesians proved the falsehood of the Reformed doctrine, only the ambiguous "refute the doctrines" and "show them to be false."

Thirdly the address found in Ephesians 2:19 is explained clearly in Ephesians 2:12.​

Note the complete avoidance of why Ephesians proves Reformed Doctrine is Illogical and Unreasoned.

 

[37818]

Having been among the perishing, . . . Ephesians 2:2-3, . . . Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. . . .