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Featured Does the Epistle to the Ephesians Prove the Reformed Are illogical & Unreason

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JD731, May 25, 2024.

  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to help these reformed by causing them to think. I have always had the idea that you are here for the sole reason of self promotion. There is nothing impressive about you that I can see, and I will not be dealing with you unless you have something to say.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol, ah JD, that's exactly how I became 'reformed' as you call it, by thinking.

    Nah, he's just another dime-a-dozen ranting anti-Cal with CDS.

    ??? For Pete's sake! He's the founder of Vanology! It's untold the amount of scripture this man has rewritten to fit.
     
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  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians continues to explain the parables of Jesus during the last days of his ministry. I have quoted some of his prophecies where he tells us how events will shake out because of the unbelief of his people and nation. History shows that he sent his 12 apostles and 70 prophets out to Jerusalem and Judaea for a period of about 7 years to none but to the Jews. They, the apostles and prophets, were the only commissioned preachers of the gospel of Jesus Christ during this time. Jesus Christ had given them the same authority that had been given him, the authority to bind and loose.

    Jn 20:21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    These are the men who were bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. Jesus said all things were now ready and he sent these men out to them to bid them come, and they would not come. They said they would not have this man to rule over them. So the Acts, which is the first century history, agrees with the prophecy of Jesus Christ. They killed Stephan the messenger of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ after 7 years of hearing the gospel.. So what is next in the providential work of God in history. Here it is:

    Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
    2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
    3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

    So the persecution against the church was the instrument of God for sowing the seed in Samaria. In chapter 8 verse 1 the scriptures says the church was scattered into the regions of Judaea and Samaria and that is a far as they were scattered at this time. Most of you don't believe that and there is a good possibility that your Bibles does not even say that. Then in the providence of God and at the end of chapter 8 he had Phillip, a prophet, to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to one lone Hamite heading back from Jerusalem to Ethiopia when no doubt he preached the gospel to them, inviting them to come to the marriage supper. Finally, after saving Saul on the Damascus Road God the Father opened the door of faith to the gentiles in Acts 10 and the first gentile who was saved in the name of Jesus Christ, thus receiving his Spirit to indwell them was Cornelius in Acts 10 in 40 AD, ten years after Jesus had risen from the dead.

    The Jews would not come. The Samaritans came for a while, and some Hamites but it was the gentiles who were interested in being saved and they have been coming even to this very day. Why was Jesus so interested in sending out heralds to invite people to come after those who were bidden refused to come> Does he say? Can we know? Here is what he said;

    Lk 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
    16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
    17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
    18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
    19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
    20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
    21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
    22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
    23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
    24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

    I have underlined the reason Jesus Christ wanted more guests after those who were bidden would not come. It was so his house will be filled. A house is a family in scripture. Being born again puts one into the family of God through Christ, who was the firstborn into this family of God. His original intention was for the Jews to fill the house but they refused to come. The guests will become the bride of Christ.

    Look at this and understand that in Rom 11:13 Paul began to address the gentiles in his letter who were grafted in to fill the place vacated by the unbelieving Jews. I will not quote it all but you should read it. He would say this to the gentiles while he was talking about the Jews.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    This passage teaches us that gentles will eventually be cut off the good olive tree for the exact same reason the Jews were cut off, unbelief. At that time the house will be full and God will once again graft those Jews into their own tree. Every thing in this age is looking for the fullness of the gentiles to be come in.

    This brings us to another parable that is a probation period for the Jews. This corresponds with the OT type as affirmed by Hebrews 3.

    6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

    The fig tree is symbolic of the nation of Israel and the vineyard is a symbol of Judah.

    7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
    8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

    It was cut down after 40 years because they refused to enter into the rest of God just like their forefathers under Moses.

    The tree was cut down and removed in 70 AD. Since then the gentiles are bidden to fill the house.

    The two entities in Ephesians are the Jews and the gentiles. God was saving Jews because he promised the Spirit to them and now the gentiles are being saved by his mercy to fill his house and to be his bride. It is a marriage supper we are heading to. The two entities in the body are one. One does not become the other in the body though their standing is equal as sons of God with a joint inheritance. With the Spirit of God in the body one has the trinitarian signature.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks behold the sandbox bully, trying to intimidate me but running from any discussion of the truth.

    Here is an unambiguous rendering of Ephesians 1:4-6.

    For He chose us corporately when He chose Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in His sight. In love He did this by predestining us to our bodily redemption as His children through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

    Only after our bodily redemption will we be totally (body and spirit/soul) holy and unblemished in His sight.

    Ephesians 1:11(NET)
    In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of Him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of His will

    Once God transferred us individually into Christ, and sealed us in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our predestined future bodily redemption, we know God will accomplish all He has promised according to the counsel of His will.​
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    When Paul said in Eph 1:12 that the Jews were first to trust in Christ I think we can take this literally. I have supplied enough scripture in a historical context to prove this. This is certainly important in the overall definition of the church and the "mystery of Christ" and the fact that he, Paul, alone had been given "this grace."

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    One may argue that grace had been given to the Jews and only the grace of God to the gentiles had been given to Paul but the only problem is that the scriptures do not say it. It is important to get this right if we will follow the logic of chapter two, actually beginning with chapter 1 verse 13 where the division between the two groups is apparent in the context of the formation of the body of Christ which is the church composed of both groups on equal standing before God, yet distinct.

    Nobody in their right mind would ever doubt that all the apostles and prophets on this side of the cross and resurrection were not part of the body of Christ. What part you may ask and here is the answer.

    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    The saints are group # 1. The "ye" are group #2 and are also strangers and foreigners. The saints were in the body first and then the strangers and foreigners Now watch this;

    .Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    Now is the foundation of a house part of the house?

    Now watch the two groups here;

    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together <with the saints> for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    This building is alive because the Spirit is in it as his eternal habitation.

    Now here is a conversation between the apostle and prophets and our Lord Jesus Christ during his final week on this earth. Read it.

    Mt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
    26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    Here is the question
    27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

    Here is the answer
    28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
    30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    What is the logical deduction from these verses I have quoted.

    There is going to be a regeneration. The 12 tribes of Israel will be present with the foundational members of the church of Jesus Christ sitting on thrones judging the 12 tribes. Jesus Christ in not sitting on his throne, he is sitting "in" his throne. The throne is the millennial temple described in Ezk beginning at chapter 40. The logic and reasoning here is also that the two groups in the church are a distinct group throughout eternity yet it is one body..

    This kingdom structure is after the pattern under Moses and it is this structure that Jesus established when he began in Matt 4 to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God. When Jesus said all things are now ready he really did mean it. The officers in the kingdom had been chosen during the ministry of Jesus Christ on the earth.

    I will continue this in a following post because chapter two is very important to get a hold of the truth.
     
  6. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Take a look at the transition from first to second, the us and the you , the ours and yours, the we and the ye, the before and after, the fellowship in the body, the word together and all the other word indicators that Paul is speaking of two groups in this epistle who did not get in the body at the same time and who were added by God to the body under different principles. There cannot be any doubt that the church of Jesus Christ was conceived in the mind of God in eternity past. Israel had a natural birth in Egypt and collectively was the son of God. A reading of Ex 4 will prove that to be true. The church of Jesus Christ was intended by God to be the new birth of this people and in this epistle Paul even uses terminology to inform us that the new birth would be the creation of a new man. That is what a new birth does to a man.

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Ephesians 2:15
    Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (TWO) one new man, so making peace;

    Herein lies the awfulness of the Reformed faith who teaches that a sinner cannot have any sensibilities about his own condemnation and is unable to respond to God without some hocus pocus that the scriptures knows nothing about. The very reason that gentiles were included in the church of Jesus Christ is because those who were bidden would not come. God was angry with them when they would not come. They committed an unpardonable sin because they would not come. Gentiles were included because they would not come. Two thousand years have transpired with heralds in the highways and hedges to find enough gentiles who will come to fill up his house in preparation for the marriage supper.

    Historically, we are informed that God gave Israel 40 years to repent and be saved, which was complete in 70 AD, and we all know what happened. She did not repent every one like was required and God sent sure judgement on them. What was the result? There was no more Israel. Israel was cast out of her land into the world of the gentiles and God counted them as gentiles. The church then took on a gentile character. The 8 Jewish men in the OT who married gentile women is the type. That began with Isaac marrying Rebekah.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    This is a corporate call.

    22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Israel is dead. Time does not advance for people who are dead. Israel will be raised from the dead very early in the morning of the third millennial day and God will keep all his salvation promises to them but it will not be at a marriage of the Lamb. There is another type that comes into play at that time. It is a marriage of the Father of a restored and divorced wife.

    Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
    2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
    3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
    4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away. I suggest reading this prophecy.

    We will talk of Ephesians 2 coming up.
     
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am going to identify the "ye" in Ephesians. They are different than the "we." I will let the scriptures do it and I will just call it out. Now look at verses 12 and 13 in chaoter 1;

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    11 In whom <in Christ body> also we.... who first trusted in Christ.

    Have obtained an inheritance.
    Being predestinated to obtain an inheritance according to God the Father's purpose.

    So let's just say in the historical setting of beginning of the church in the New Testament the we are identified as those who were first to trust in Christ. That would be those of Israel. That was easy to reason out but knowing the "ye" of the text and context is even much easier. Look while you read these next two verses;

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    So the ye are gentiles.

    Now watch while Paul brings these two groups out in the open;

    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    Now those who were afar off are made fellowcitizens with the saints, the first in the body of Christ, the Jews.

    So how it be any clearer?

    Let's look now at the conversation in chapter two. I will bold the Jews and underline the gentiles in the text.

    1 And you hath he <God the Father> quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together <the ye and we> with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together <the we and the ye> , and made us sit together < the we and ye> in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it <salvation by grace through faith> is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom <Christ> all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together <with the Jews> for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Now gentlemen, I am going to make an observation here. I observe that Jews were under the OT Law of Moses and had covenant relations with God that gentiles did not have. The Law commanded the Jews to observe certain ordinances that the Jews agreed to obey. Read Exodus 20 now to see this agreement was presented to Israel for acceptance or rejection and they agreed to it. However, these very ordinances separated the gentiles and was a source of enmity between the Jew and gentiles through the OT years. The gentiles could never be in the body with Jews if it was required they keep those OT ordinances that were associated with the Law. This is what Paul means when he says in Verses 8 and 9 salvation is by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and it is by the grace of God and not by any works of the law. The gentiles in the context are singled out to be told this. The OT law has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation of the gentiles. It is strictly the gift of God and gifts do not come to one by working for it.

    So here is the definition of the word dispensation of the grace of God with the emphasis on the word dispensation. Check it out.

    1) An exemption from a rule or usual requirement

    2) A a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time

    3) The action of distributing or supplying something.


    If you will notice from reading the NT, beginning with the Acts, the Law of Moses as an operative principle of God's divine dealing with the Jews came to an end with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Now it is very important to see that God the Father had already made a transition from the Law to that of promise with the introduction of Jesus Christ to Israel at his baptism in the Jordan River by John the Baptist. Read this:

    Mr 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
    5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

    It is important to read what I have underlined literally. The good news, the glad tidings, the gospel, of Jesus Christ began when he was introduced to Israel but he was not introduced to the world. He came to fulfill al that was written in the law, the Psalms and the Prophets concerning himself, he said. That had to come first before he could minister grace to the gentiles. He must live under the Law to fulfill it.

    It is important to understand that a transition and a dispensation is not the same thing. There are many transitions in the scriptures but just a few dispensations. When God took the law away as the operative principle over Israel that spoke to definition #1. Some of the language in the Hebrews speaks to this. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. He is speaking in terms of covenants by which Israel is ruled. This necessitated definition # 2. God sent his Spirit to indwell his people and lead them from within. This is a definite change in government. Israel was charged with this dispensational change by being first to receive the gift of the Spirit. Finally, the receiving of the gentiles was under the principle of "grace." So God distributed his grace worldwide and has an invisible realm of rule during this dispensation, God on the inside of each believer and in the collective whole.

    God in this age is fulfilling his promise to Abraham to bless all the families of the earth, Shem, Ham, and Japheth by his one seed, Jesus Christ. This dispensation is quickly coming to an end in our days and we are looking a the next dispensation, the dispensation of the fullness of times. All the rules will be different.

    There is more of this wonderful truth and I did not quote the verses I was thinking about while I typed and commented because of the length of the post. I know I will have to return and solidify these truths with in context scriptures. I do not have time to proof read this so hopefully the errors will be few and inconsequential.
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The first paragraph in chapter 2

    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past YE walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom ALSO WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Identifying the "YOU" in V 1 as being identical wit the "YE" in chapter 1, V13, who were additions to the church. It should be clear from reading the prayer for this group. Here it yhe whole prayer.

    15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
    16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    The difference between the "saints" and the "faithful in Christ Jesus" is determined by the "promise." The promise is not only salvation but is also a person. The person of the Spirit. Consider these verses.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    The promise of the Spirit was given from God as an everlasting promise to his own people but it was not given to the gentiles previous to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now the promise is given to gentiles "in Christ." See in verse six the gentiles are not partakers of the promises, plural, but the promise singular. This is the promise of the Spirit to live in them. If God had decided never to give the Spirit to gentiles he would have been unfaithful to Abraham because he said to him in his covenant with him that all the families of the earth would be blessed in his seed. In Galatians we are told God was speaking of one seed who is Christ.

    Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Do you see how all the children of God are the spiritual seed of Abraham because the connection to him was through the one and only seed of the woman through whom Jesus Christ was born physically? Mary's linage goes back to Abraham and linked Jesus Christ in the family of Abraham physically and to the Abrahamic covenant through her. The father of Jesus was not from any of the sons of Abraham but Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God. The physical linage of a family is counted from the seed donor, except in the linage of Jesus Christ who was traced through Mary back to David to Abraham, to Adam.. God had only one physical son, of a Jewish virgin, Jesus, who is called Christ, and he, Jesus, had no physical offspring. Since all the children of God are born through Jesus Christ and none of them are his, God's, sons because of a physical birth then it is logical to understand that each birth that made one a child of God was a spiritual birth. This means the physical birth had already taken place in the family of Adam and the spiritual birth was a second birth. So the child of God is physical first and spiritual second.
     
  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The 2nd paragraph in chapter two.

    4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,<this is both groups>
    5 Even when we <both groups> were dead in sins, hath quickened us <both groups> together with Christ, (by grace ye <gentiles> are saved)
    6 And hath raised us <both groups> up together, and made us <both groups> sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us <both groups> through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye <gentiles> saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it < salvation> is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we <both groups> are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    This paragraph will illustrate the two entities in the body better than most. It would not make sense if Paul were not drawing upon two different principles at work in forming the foundation of this house. Paul is emphasizing that gentiles are put into the body with the Jewish believers by grace through faith. They are without a promise from God the Father. Paul is careful to make the distinction between the Jewish Christians and the gentiles Christians and why and how they got there. If the Jewish Christians had been saved by grace then this passage would not have been worded so. Once again I must remind the reader that Judah was still a nation in 60 AD when this was written.

    So process these words in the above text;

    V4 - US
    V5 - we, us, together, ye
    V6 - raised us, together, made us sit together,
    V7 - us
    V8 - by grace ye gentiles are saved through faith, not of yourselves, it is the gift, V9 not of working to keep the law.
    V10 - We are his workmanship to walk together in good works.

    Reasonable and logical Christians could not read that paragraph without understanding from the words that both entities are one in the body but distinctly two groups, much like a husband and a wife. The trinity shows up in this creation of Jews, gentiles, and the Spirit. There is a transition coming in 70 AD when the Jewish nation will lose their national identity and the Jews cast out of their land and considered as gentiles in the lands to which they were driven because they would not lay hold of their national promises.
     
  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am trusting that I have given enough information here to convince the average Joe that the goal of building the church of Jesus Christ is not to transform those of the stock of Abraham who are abiding in the area of Ephesus in the Roman province of Asia into gentiles and likewise those gentiles abiding there are not to be transformed into Israel, but the goal is to mold members of both races into members of the same body and as equals in their standing as children of God in the body in the same way, by faith in Jesus Christ, the savior of the world. As we will see when I quote the next paragraph God has dispensationalized this time period by taking away certain Jewish ceremonial practices that would be a hindrance to gentiles because he initialized gentile salvation through the Jewish people and nation and preachers.

    What God has done here is not to be construed as ending his special relations with `the family of Abraham and Jacob but a time where he can display his character under grace by receiving those and reconciling those who have been his enemies in time past and making all one in standing in the body of Christ.

    Here is a note and a call to remembrance of where we are in this time period here as it relates to the existing nation of Judah. We are in a time of a 40 year probationary period after the cross where Judah is being called upon to bear fruit. This time period will end in 70 AD. This letter is written in 60 AD.

    Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
    7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
    8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

    We know the end of the nation of Judah took place in 70 AD when they were dispersed into the gentile nations of the world. Their city was burned to a crisp and their temple where the Lord had historically lived and met with the nation was destroyed and was no more. The nation is now reckoned dead and all of us knows that time and purpose does not advance for dead things. However, God has promised a resurrection of the nation of Israel. and time will then continue. Jews are counted by God as gentiles while they are cut off from their land. They failed to repent in the probation time and the church of Jesus Christ, with a Jewish foundation, became in character a gentile bride for Christ. All the OT types demonstrates this, beginning with Isaac and Rebekah.

    Another thing to consider about the Jews in this probationary time frame is that Paul was the man who God gave the New Testament church doctrine and explanation. He wrote his letters to the churches that were established, he said, to make the gentiles obedient by word and deed. But the Jewish Christian epistles were not addressed to particular churches. Peter wrote his letters to the strangers in the provinces of Asia minor and James to the 12 tribes of Israel scatter abroad and Jude wrote to the Jewish brethren. John, who wrote his 3 epistles much later, in the 90's AD, and he wrote to "the little children" the saved among the Jews particularly in this area. The Judaizers were very active in opposition to the Christian message during these days and were greatly condemned by these writers. Ultimately they were responsible for the nation to enter into their rest in 70 AD, at the end of the probationary time.

    So for clarity, Paul and the Jewish apostles wrote to people in the same area but for different emphasis. The Abrahamic covenant promises were still active and sure to these 10 tribes of Israel that were under the curse of God and out of their land, and strangers and foreigners and this was the emphasis of the Jewish Christian writers.

    eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    .
     
  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The next paragraph begins chapter 3 and is 13 verses long. It begins with a conjunction, the word "for." Paul continues to build upon the doctrine of the church of Jesus Christ as being the temple of the Holy Ghost. This is the cause he is speaking of and he begins "for this cause," that is the cause of building the temple. Read the paragraph.

    Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward gentile -ward)
    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Stop right here for a consideration and some thought. Remove the language of verses 2 through 5 so you can see what the mystery that he is revealing here is. The gentiles are going to be fellowheirs, of all things, with the Jewish believers in Christ

    1) fellowheirs
    2) of the same body
    3) partakers of Christ's promise

    Where? in Christ, that is in the body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

    How? by the gospel.

    It does not matter what anyone says, the passage says this is the dispensation of the grace of God. So what is the dispensation of the grace of God? - It is defined in these verses, especially in verse 6, as being the inclusion of the gentiles in the body.

    I remind the reader that the ministry of Jesus on the earth was in a different age. This was not revealed during that time. It was a mystery. and it was hidden during that time.

    We should look again here at the definition of the word "dispensation." I have given it before.

    1. exemption from a rule or usual requirement.
    2. a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time.
    3. the action of distributing or supplying something.

    The number 3 applies in this case. The gentiles are supplied with the same Spirit as the Jews and are given the same and equal status in Christ. We have already seen the application of definition #1 in chapter two but it is worth repeating.
    [15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby]:

    We will read about definition of #2 when we get to the application of the doctrine in chapters 5 & 6.


    Paul says he is the chosen vessel to reveal this mystery to the nations, having been given it in total by revelation of the Spirit. V 3.




    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
    13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

    As Paul continues he expounds on his own responsibility as a foundation stone in this temple of the Spirit. He Says in the verses I have underlined what his responsibility is. It begins with his calling of preaching to the gentiles and make them understand the fellowship (on Jews and gentiles in the church as one). This makes me remember and consider another thing Paul says in Galatians chapter 2. I will quote it.

    Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
    8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
    9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
    10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

    This is a good place to consider who are gentiles and heathen and who are the circumcision. One need now to track where and to whom these preachers went and ministered to. Paul went west to Europe after this and the Jewish preachers ministered to those strangers and Israel who were scattered out of their land. As far as I know none of them preached outside of Asia. Later John wrote letters to seven of the churches in Asia in his book of Revelation. One might conclude that these churches were made up mostly of converts of the strangers,

    One should read this in light of the fact that gentiles and Jews in the church are one but also distinct in the same way as a man and his wife. The third member in the body is the Spirit of God which puts the trinitarian signature on this body.

    There is more to talk about later.
     
  12. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward (gentile -ward)
    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    I call attention once again to what is being said, and when it is being said, and about whom it is being said, and why it is being said, and even where it is being said. (in prison in Rome).

    1) Paul said he was in prison for gentiles V1
    2) He said the dispensation of grace had been given him to gentile-ward.V2
    3) He said the dispensation of grace to gentiles was a mystery V3
    4) He is making known how he came to understand the mystery and it came to him by special revelation of God. V4
    5) Paull called this the "mystery of Christ." V 4
    6) He said there had been previous ages (Strong's 1074 = generations) when this was not revealed V5
    7) He said "now" as if this was a different age, this mystery is revealed to his (Christ's) holy (an adjective) apostles and prophets.V5
    8) Paul said this mystery was revealed by the Spirit (who Jesus said he would send into the world to teach them new stuff).V5
    10) Paul said the gentiles should be fellow heirs - meaning joint heirs, of the same body, meaning one body, partakers of his promise, meaning the gift of the indwelling Spirit IN THE BODY OF CHRIST by the gospel.

    Comment on point 1, in V1.

    Do not let some very important information escape about the apostle Paul. This man was not even saved until the church of Jesus Christ had been in existence already for over 7 years. No one was commissioned to preach the gospel of Christ and give the gift of the Holy Spirit through baptism and laying on of hands except the apostles and prophets who had ministered with Jesus from his own baptism by John the Baptist in Mark 1. In Acts 7 God called for a decision about Jesus Christ of this nation by sending Stephen to the Jewish rulers in the temple at Jerusalem and they killed the messenger of the New covenant, thus rejecting Jesus Christ.

    This was prophesied by Jesus Christ in a parable towards the end of his earthly ministry a short time before he himself would be killed by these same rulers of Israel. Note this;

    Lk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
    15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
    16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
    17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
    18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
    19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
    20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
    21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
    22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

    23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

    24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

    So the apostles preached only in Jerusalem and Judaea for the first 7 years. Then the showdown with the Jews.

    Then they began preaching in Samaria but only to Jews and to one lone Hamite down in Gaza. This goes on for 3 years, and then in Acts 10 God opened the door for gentiles to be saved and any saved person was then a preacher and baptism was not a means to receive the gift of the Spirit. God had saved Paul to be the apostle to the gentiles and for three years had trained him about New Testament doctrine of the grace of God that he had extended through Peter to the gentiles.

    Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen (in Acts 37/38) travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

    You can see I am not making these things up. The scriptures say them and I quote them.

    I will be commenting on all my ten points above in future posts.
     
    #72 JD731, Jul 6, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2024
  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    From post #72 above;

    1) Paul said he was in prison for gentiles V1
    2) He said the dispensation of grace had been given him to gentile-ward.V2
    3) He said the dispensation of grace to gentiles was a mystery V3
    4) He is making known how he came to understand the mystery and it came to him by special revelation of God. V4
    5) Paull called this the "mystery of Christ." V 4
    6) He said there had been previous ages (Strong's 1074 = generations) when this was not revealed V5
    7) He said "now" as if this was a different age, this mystery is revealed to his (Christ's) holy (an adjective) apostles and prophets.V5
    8) Paul said this mystery was revealed by the Spirit (who Jesus said he would send into the world to teach them new stuff).V5
    10) Paul said the gentiles should be fellow heirs - meaning joint heirs, of the same body, meaning one body, partakers of his promise, meaning the gift of the indwelling Spirit IN THE BODY OF CHRIST by the gospel.

    I hope the powers that be are not offended by my bringing this lesson on Ephesians back to the forefront. My reason for doing it is the propensity of Van and Ken posting the most boring and senseless topics on the internet, one right after the other and the old regulars seems to have vanished away, and who can blame them for leaving.

    In this study I have provided prophetic utterances from Jesus Christ in the parables of the last days of his public ministry on earth before his crucifixion by his own people. He especially directed these parables of the last 7 days as a prophecy of purpose of forming his bride by including gentile believers in lieu and in the place of Jewish believers because those Jews who were bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb would not come. There are 89 chapters in the four gospel accounts and the last seven days of the ministry of Jesus Christ in the city of Jerusalem occupies exactly one third of those chapters, twenty nine. When Paul wrote his letters, he said this to the Galatians in chapter 4 of his letter to them;

    Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    It was a singular time that was full when Jesus was born as opposed to Ephesians 1:10 where Paul predicts the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth as being a plural form of times, the fullness of times. Logic and reasoning instructs us that if Jesus comes the second time to bring all dispensations (time frames) to an end, then he must be coming in the last one of the "times." If anyone thinks that is not good logic and reasoning please tell me why it is not. No one can really with comprehension and intelligence read the scriptures and not know that the earthly family of Jesus Christ, Judah of Israel, were under the constraints of the Mosaic law when he came the first time, which were moral, civil, and ceremonial laws that ruled them from the outside of themselves and proved impossible for them because of the weakness and corruption of the flesh.

    Here is verse 6 of Ga 4;

    6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
    7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

    This is different!!!! This is a transition from something old to something new. Being a servant is far different from being a son. A son becomes an heir through birth. Keep in mind that many, if not most, of these people in the area of Galatia in Asia Minor were those of Ephraim in Hosea.

    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Ho 1:8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
    9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
    10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
    11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

    Loammi means not my people. I hope some will understand that these tribes of Israel would not be received back as the family of Abraham but as the family of God. This prophecy is yet future for fullness. It would be for only those who believes the gospel of Christ. These people are considered by God as gentiles because they are cut off from the covenants of Israel by being foreigners in a strange land that is not theirs. One must understand that all the activities of the apostles with the exception of John took place during the generation of Jesus Christ which was complete in 70 AD. This was crunch time for Israel and instead of their continued belief in Jesus they failed to enter their national rest. Therefore guests for the wedding "supper" (supper is at the end of the day) is being gathered by the workers from those who were not previously bidden. The idea is to get a filled house for the wedding supper.

    Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    Such is the letter to the Ephesians. There are many more wonderful truths to know..
     
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