God the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit ALL are LORD!
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Does the Holy Spirit Speak and Act Himself then?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Hark seems to be holding to the Lord Jesus being the Lord over the Holy Spirit!You can safely ignore Hark's "teaching" (doctrine) of the Holy Spirit. His pneumatology is bizarre and idiosyncratic. He completely ignored my post asking for someone--anyone--who agreed with him. (Well, I did say no Internet theology, please.). I've read a lot on the Holy Spirit, and never heard of anything like his ideas. I have purposefully studied every single mention of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, and guess what--I never even one time thought what Hark is saying!
Hark believes we should never pray to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. Therefore, in an obvious logical syllogism, according to Hark we are sinning when we pray to God. I find that totally ridiculous. I find it to be false doctrine.
He is a separate Person then Jesus!
Did the Holy Spirit act and speak of His own accord in Acts?
You are right. Sorry. Thanks for asking for clarity.
I do not believe there are Three "manifestations" of the One God.
I believe that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are indeed Three distinct Persons,[/QUOTE]
Can the Holy Spirit say and do apart from Jesus, on His own?
Hark
Well-Known Member
How does the Holy Spirit illuminate except by the words from Christ Jesus per John 16:13 & John 14:26?
Until you apply post # 11 in this thread... of what John 16:13 means in all Bible versions, you will be stuck, because I cannot teach you that. So ask the Lord Jesus Christ for wisdom in understanding what John 16:13 in all Bible versions are saying in post #11 in this thread. I shall repost it for you below.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV
In all Bible versions, the Holy Spirit does not speak on His own authority, or initiative, and the NIV understood that to mean He can only speak what He hears.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV
Compare what other bible versions are saying what John 16:13 means.
John 16:13The Spirit of truth will come and guide you in all truth. He will not speak His own words to you; He will speak what He hears, revealing to you the things to come .. The Voice
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. ASV
So the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but speak what He hears as the words are not His own words but from Christ Jesus as we read on in the KJV.
John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV
That which the Holy Spirit gives to us, comes from Jesus Christ. All that the Holy Spirit does, the Holy Spirit gives that credit & glory to the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The fruits of the Spirit aka the fruits of righteousness comes from Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ is the One that will finish His work in us to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. KJV
The Holy Spirit decides by Himself who gets what Gift and why, and He also leads and guides and instructs us of His own accord!
Hark
Well-Known Member
That is a common assumption by misreading the scripture in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. See post # 13.reposted below
@SavedByGrace 's Bible version not referenced Not the KJV below unless otherwise marked.
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Who is Lord in 5? The Holy Spirit would say Jesus is Lord per verse 3. See? Assumption is made that this "he" is only referring to the Holy Spirit when it is not. Since the Holy Spirit is in services to the Lord then dividing as He wills is to jesus Christ as dividing as He wills.
Continuing in your Bible version which you did not identify to what Bible version that was;
" 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (1 Corinthians 12)
Seeing how John 16:13-15 came before Paul's epistles to the Corinthians, it is best to apply that to 1 Corinthians 12:11 to discern Who that "he" is as "he wills". And since Jesus is Lord per 1 Corinthians 12:3 per the Holy Ghost, if one wonders who that Lord is and who is that as "he wills" is. the Holy Spirit would answer that question from Jesus as Lord & say Jesus Christ.
each and All members of the Trinity though are equally Lord and God!
Hark
Well-Known Member
But it is the Father's will be done as now Jesus Christ is leading the Holy Spirit as the Son is the Head of the church doing the ministry to the body of Christ as our Good Shepherd through the Holy Spirit in us. Ask Jesus for help to understand this.
Have you shared this topic in other Christian forums you go to in asking this question? Then ask them what all Bibles are saying about the Holy Spirit in John 16:13-15 in how He speaks and not speak and how He ministers in relations to Jesus Christ.
Ask as to Who the Holy Spirit gives the credit & glory of that ministry to which I say the answer is Jesus Christ..
By the way, keep praying to Jesus Christ to help you understand john 16:13-15. Trust Him to be Your Friend & Good Shepherd to help you understand what He meant.
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The Holy Spirit is Equally God, so Jesus is not "leading/lording? over Him!
Hark
Well-Known Member
The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of Christ, thus everything He does and speak is from Jesus Christ as the Head of the Church.
He is fully and equally God, has his own mind, correct?
Warning to all reading this thread: if no one but you believes a certain doctrine, you can be sure it is wrong. The Holy Spirit, our Teacher (Luke 12:12, John 14:26), does not give proprietary doctrines to just one Christian.
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Hark
Well-Known Member
Because there are more Catholics than Protestants, then Protestants must be wrong? Because there are more muslims than Catholics, then Catholics must be wrong? Numbers should never be used as validation of what is true and so invalidating one person because he is one is not justified.
Do we not reprove the many by scripture? Then the same has to be done for the one, but is the one wrong for being one?
The problem here is ignoring Jesus's own words on how bad it will be in the last days before He comes as the Bridegroom.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
In Matthew 7:13-27 about those led astray, many are just following the crowd in church due to false prophets in the churches.
Note the beginning....
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Note the solution in Luke 13:24-30 to avoid being of those left behind but reproving Matthew 7:13-14
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
This is why I ask everyone to go to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace for confirmation to the word He is leading me to share today. I am nothing as it is on God to cause the increase per 1 Corinthians 3:5-7.
Jesus has to prove it for you.1 Thessalonians 5:18-25 as I should pray for you as He leads me to do when opportunity arises.
So do pray about this today asking Jesus for wisdom in seeing the truth in His words just in case you are not seeing; James 1:5-6 & Hebrews 4:12-16
Please understand that your teaching lies with the likes of Muhammad, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith and others whose following is that of legality rather than grace. John of Japan is lovingly warning you to flee from the path you are presently walking. I concur with John and would plead with you to amend your path.
Hark
Well-Known Member
@Yeshua1 & @John of Japan
Reprove by scripture or don't.
Look at all the other Bible versions in what John 16:13 is saying & meaning.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV
Is that the truth that the Holy Spirit will only speak what He hears?
John 16:13The Spirit of truth will come and guide you in all truth. He will not speak His own words to you; He will speak what He hears, revealing to you the things to come .. The Voice
Is that true that the Holy Spirit will not speak His own words to you?
John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV
Is that true the Holy Spirit will not speak on His own authority?
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. ASV
So the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but speak what He hears as the words are not His own words but from Christ Jesus as I read it with His help in the KJV.
This is not rocket science. (I actually have a friend who is a rocket scientist.) It has nothing to do with Catholic vs. Protestant. And it has nothing to do with the end times. (I teach eschatology.) It has to do with the fact that what you are claiming about the Holy Spirit is an idiosyncratic doctrine. You are the only one I've ever heard of that believes in some kind of inferiority of the role of the Holy Spirit.
So if you are not the only one around saying these things, please quote a genuine theologian who beliees like you do. I asked for this before and you ignored it.) If you can't do this, I seriously suggest you buy some good books by theologians about the Holy Spirit. (I did recommend two, John R. Rice and R. A. Torrey but you ignored that, too. Or you could try John Owen's magnum opus on the Holy Spirit.)
I just prayed and asked the Lord to fill me with His Holy Spirit, since I am about to teach on the Olivet Discourse. God is so good to give us a Comforter/Helper/Advocate (all the same word in Greek, parakletos) for such times. "Thank you in advance, Holy Spirit, for helping me."
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Hark
Well-Known Member
That goes to point; even if I find one.. you would still be required by the scripture to prove everything by Him, are you not?
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.