Does the New Testament Teach The Plan or Individual Election?

[convicted1]

Some hold that it is the Plan of God that was/is Elected, that the Plan to put those of faith in jesus into Church and than start the predestination process
others that the NT teaches us individual election, that saints were elected, not the plan itself

is it either /or, or could both be somehow true?

Well now......lemme try and take a stab at this'un.......

When Jesus came here to be our sacrificial Lamb, He took upon Himself the sin of the whole world. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Now, in this sacrifice, He took our sins and nailed them to the cross with Himself, and in this, He made the way possible, and passable for all mankind. 1 John 2: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Now He stated this is what He would do after He would be resurrected: John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So in essence, it seems to me that in the OT, there was a form of singular election, meaning that God chose certain individuals to do His will for Him. People such as Noah, Moses, Aaron, Elijah, Elisha, Joshua, Samuel, David, Solomon, etc. But, that didn't negate those who died lost. They rebelled against God, and God took their life for it!!

Gen. 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

In Numbers chapter 32, you can read where God caused the ground to swallow all the houses of Korah for their evil deeds.

So, when Jesus died, He opened the way for us Gentiles to be grafted in, henceforth, we as a whole(all gentiles) were elected(chosen) to be grafted in, though only those who believe, will go to heaven.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Tater77]

Individual election as shown in the doctrines of Calvinism demonstrate a very limited knowledge of space and time. To say that God acknowledges time as we do would put God in the constraints of mortal perceptions. Scripture clearly says that God does not see time as we do and does not think as we do. So something else must be going on if even human science knows that space and time are not as simple as once thought.

Psalm 90:4 (New International Version, ©2011)


4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 (New International Version, ©2011)

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.​

Isaiah 55:8 (New International Version, ©2011)

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.​

 

[InTheLight]

To say that God acknowledges time as we do would put God in the constraints of mortal perceptions. Scripture clearly says that God does not see time as we do and does not think as we do.

Yet God did live in linear time as a human for 33 years on Earth. I think that God has the ability to enter and leave our timelines whenever he sees fit. I think it happens when He intervenes in our lives in answer to prayer.

 

[StefanM]

Believers have not been called and justified?! How else could they have been believers? One is called to faith, what the text supports, not because of one's faith.

Believers HAVE been called, but they are called while they are non-believers.

I agree; one is not called because of one's faith. One is called to faith, then is justified, then is (eventually) glorified. That is the biblical pattern.

The groups in verse 30 are the same for calling, justification, and glorification.

 

[StefanM]

Individual election as shown in the doctrines of Calvinism demonstrate a very limited knowledge of space and time. To say that God acknowledges time as we do would put God in the constraints of mortal perceptions. Scripture clearly says that God does not see time as we do and does not think as we do. So something else must be going on if even human science knows that space and time are not as simple as once thought.

It's not a matter of space and time; it's a matter of logic. Even God cannot violate basic laws of logic--for instance, he cannot both exist and not exist.

 

[webdog]

It's not a matter of space and time; it's a matter of logic. Even God cannot violate basic laws of logic--for instance, he cannot both exist and not exist.

Isn't the Trinity a violation of laws of logic? God cannot violate Himself, not our understanding of logic. Our minds understand one person cannot be 3...yet that is the case with God.

 

[webdog]

Believers HAVE been called, but they are called while they are non-believers.

I agree; one is not called because of one's faith. One is called to faith, then is justified, then is (eventually) glorified. That is the biblical pattern.

The groups in verse 30 are the same for calling, justification, and glorification.

The group in verse 30 is the same group in verse 29...believers.

 

[StefanM]

Isn't the Trinity a violation of laws of logic? God cannot violate Himself, not our understanding of logic. Our minds understand one person cannot be 3...yet that is the case with God.

The Trinity is not a logical contradiction. The doctrine may appear paradoxical, but God's very nature is logical. I never said that God could not violate our understanding of logic. Our understanding is flawed, but there are some things that God simply cannot do because, as logical contradictions, they are incompatible with his nature.

 

[StefanM]

The group in verse 30 is the same group in verse 29...believers.

We agree. They are believers. It just doesn't mean what you think it means.

In verse 30, calling logically follows predestination. He does not predestine those who respond to the calling. He calls the ones he predestined.

 

[webdog]

We agree. They are believers. It just doesn't mean what you think it means.

In verse 30, calling logically follows predestination. He does not predestine those who respond to the calling. He calls the ones he predestined.

The predestined were to be conformed to Christ's image. This is the same group as in verse 30, not unto salvation.

 

[StefanM]

The predestined were to be conformed to Christ's image. This is the same group as in verse 30, not unto salvation.

How on earth can one be predestined to be conformed to Christ's image, then called, then justified, then glorified without being predestined to salvation?

 

[webdog]

How on earth can one be predestined to be conformed to Christ's image, then called, then justified, then glorified without being predestined to salvation?

I already explained it. Verse 30 is a continuation of verse 29 which are believers being sanctified (And those [the same those in verse 29] whom he predestined he also called..)

 

[StefanM]

I already explained it. Verse 30 is a continuation of verse 29 which are believers being sanctified (And those [the same those in verse 29] whom he predestined he also called..)

You keep insisting that it refers to sanctification, but verse 30 mentions justification and glorification.

 

[webdog]

You keep insisting that it refers to sanctification, but verse 30 mentions justification and glorification.

As in sanctification, it's the completion of God's plan for the believer, from the calling to justification to sanctification to glorification. That is the entire point of those verses, not that people were predestined to be believers, but believers have been predestined to be sanctified, justified and glorified.

 

[StefanM]

As in sanctification, it's the completion of God's plan for the believer, from the calling to justification to sanctification to glorification. That is the entire point of those verses, not that people were predestined to be believers, but believers have been predestined to be sanctified, justified and glorified.

Believers can't be predestined to justification. You cannot believe without simultaneously being justified. If you are predestined to justification, you are predestined to salvation, period.

 

[webdog]

We are starting to go around in circles at this point. We will have to agree to disagree...but thank you for doing so in an agreeable fashion

 

[StefanM]

We are starting to go around in circles at this point. We will have to agree to disagree...but thank you for doing so in an agreeable fashion

I can't be vitriolic. It wouldn't go over well with the wife (we disagree on this point).