Does the Prescient View Deny God's Omniscience?

[Inspector Javert]

You are playing a shell game here. Metaphysically potentialities do exist in the mind. Something that has potential is capable of becoming real. The converse is also true. It is capable of not becoming real. Man operates in the realm of potential, but not God.

Sure, if you say so.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

O.K......so.....
Does anybody deny this???

We do not read where there was some period of undetermined time where God imagined anything.

Who said anything about a period of time???
Are you saying that God simply created with no thoughts engaged in the decision? He simply engaged in the act of creating, but at no point were his thoughts or his mind involved in the process?
Are you claiming the decision to create was not a volitional decision God made, but rather something he simply did by default?
Was it simply part of his programming then?
Is the Universe inherently necessary, and God was merely following some fiat that he must create and he must create exactly as he did?

God does not need to imagine because He does not operate in the realm of potential.

MHHMM.....I remember a verse which says something almost exactly like that.
I also remember the verse which tells us that to consider or imagine a Universe requires a distinctly different process than to simply decree, and if there is a decree, there is no thought or consideration of options involved.
God considered no options and made no volitional choices between options logically prior to the decree....
Got it.

God operates in the realm of decree.

Right, because there are at least two or more inherently opposed realms in which a volitional being can operate.

The first is:
"The Realm of the Potential"
The second is"
"The Realm of Decree"

....and those are two distinct and opposing realms a being might operate in, ....and man operates in the one and God the other....

Got it! :thumbsup:

I forgot which verse that's in too, but I'm sure you can show me.

Yes, there are verses for all of those.

Please, do tell.

God operates both in and outside of space and time.

I agree.
So what?

God sees all things as happened, happening, and will happen.

O.K....I agree......

There is no potential

I'd love to see this verse.

and no need for God to imagine that which is always before Him.

You seem to think that since man thinks or imagines it takes place as a succession of thoughts within time, and if God then thinks or imagines, he must do so in the same sort of way.

God's ways are not our ways nor are his thoughts our thoughts....

If God does muse, consider or imagine, it's not done so in a succession of mental instances. And there is no Scripture which teaches that God has no thoughts, nor that God could not or did not make volitional choices about what he might or might not have made.

Not to worry, God's thoughts don't have to be restricted to the space-time continuum.

I am using good and necessary inference about who God is as revealed in scripture.

You are making Philosophical assertions which are in no way spelled out in Scripture in any detail.....(They seem rather spelled out in Thomas Aquinas' doctrine of Divine Simplicity) but I didn't know that Christendom had Universally adopted that point of view.

Just like I am.
Just like the O.P.
Nothing wrong with that if it's purpose is to attempt to understand God better, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is an issue of Scripture vs. anything.

It is an issue neither of Orthodoxy nor being true to Scripture.
It's an issue of splitting hairs.

 

[Yeshua1]

Such is impossible within the deterministic position concerning the Calvinist/Classical view of God's foreknowledge...

You can't logically have it (potential) both ways. Read my signature...

Since God always has known all that ever can and will happen....

 

[convicted1]

God sees all the possibilities in accordance to mankind. "If the works that had been in Tyre and Sidon had been done in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented." Jesus said this...me paraphrasing here...

 

[Rippon]

Is the Universe inherently necessary, and God was merely following some fiat that he must create and he must create exactly as he did?

In a word :Yes. He had to create exactly as He did because everything He does is perfect. He doesn't have a list of options or potentialities.

God's ways are not our ways nor are his thoughts our thoughts....

I hope you remember that before launching your William Lane Craig spiels.

If God does muse, consider or imagine, it's not done so in a succession of mental instances.

And you had quoted the Word of God in which it says that God's ways are our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. How easily you slide back into error.

Martin Luther told Erasmus that :"You're thoughts of God are too human." I think you are the Erasmus here.

And there is no Scripture which teaches that God has no thoughts, nor that God could not or did not make volitional choices about what he might or might not have made.

Back to your same old ways. Have you ever pondered the oft-quoted line:Has it ever occurred to you that nothing ever occurred to God?

 

[franklinmonroe]

Such is impossible within the deterministic position concerning the Calvinist/Classical view of God's foreknowledge...
You can't logically have it (potential) both ways. Read my signature...

If people have the 'free' ability to choose, does God know what those choices are beforehand?

Bear in mind that if your is "No, God doesn't know" then you are denying His omniscience (just as suggested by the OP). Conversely, if your answer is "Yes, God knows" then you hold a position that says God could know with certainty and yet the choice is not fixed. You cannot logically have it (absolute) both ways, either.

It would seem that both sides are not without their own paradoxes. The presence of paradoxes are not going to be decisive in the debate. But at least in this case, it seems the Calvinist position does deny what is a very clear attribute of The Almighty God.

 

[Winman]

If people have the 'free' ability to choose, does God know what those choices are beforehand?

Bear in mind that if your is "No, God doesn't know" then you are denying His omniscience (just as suggested by the OP). Conversely, if your answer is "Yes, God knows" then you hold a position that says God could know with certainty and yet the choice is not fixed. You cannot logically have it (absolute) both ways, either.

It would seem that both sides are not without their own paradoxes. The presence of paradoxes are not going to be decisive in the debate. But at least in this case, it seems the Calvinist position does deny what is a very clear attribute of The Almighty God.

This is error. Man has free choice, it's simply that God's foreknowledge is infallible.

If a man chooses to believe on Christ in his lifetime, this is what God foreknows in his foreknowledge.

If a man chooses to reject Christ in his lifetime, this is what God foreknows in his foreknowledge.

What God foreknows is determined by the man's choice.

Things are not fixed. If Satan had realized he would defeat himself when he crucified Jesus, he would not have done so.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That Jesus would defeat Satan by dying on the cross was prophesied throughout the scriptures, but Satan did not understand prophecy any better than we do. If he had understood it, he would not have crucified Jesus. That is exactly what 1 Cor 2:8 is telling us. Satan's actions were not fixed in stone, he had choice. But God in his foreknowledge KNEW what choice Satan would make.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sinners cannot freely respond to God though!

And God foreknowledge is not the same as he fore sees all things that ever happened, as he is the cause of much of what happened, as well as He permitted that which appened to be part of His overall plans and purposes

 

[Yeshua1]

If people have the 'free' ability to choose, does God know what those choices are beforehand?

Bear in mind that if your is "No, God doesn't know" then you are denying His omniscience (just as suggested by the OP). Conversely, if your answer is "Yes, God knows" then you hold a position that says God could know with certainty and yet the choice is not fixed. You cannot logically have it (absolute) both ways, either.

It would seem that both sides are not without their own paradoxes. The presence of paradoxes are not going to be decisive in the debate. But at least in this case, it seems the Calvinist position does deny what is a very clear attribute of The Almighty God.

God knows ALL things , never had to learn any new facts, but based upon him being all knowing and all wise/powerful, he chose exactly the Universe/earth that was the best Ones, due to his inability to make any mistakes, and always doing what is the highest/best!

 

[Winman]

Sinners cannot freely respond to God though!

Sure they can, Paul shows sinners who are servants to sin can obey the gospel and be saved.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

This scripture absolutely refutes your view. Sinners can freely respond to the gospel and obey it, even while they are servants of sin.

And God foreknowledge is not the same as he fore sees all things that ever happened, as he is the cause of much of what happened, as well as He permitted that which appened to be part of His overall plans and purposes

Much??? What kind of wiggle word is that? :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

This is error. Man has free choice, it's simply that God's foreknowledge is infallible.

If a man chooses to believe on Christ in his lifetime, this is what God foreknows in his foreknowledge.

If a man chooses to reject Christ in his lifetime, this is what God foreknows in his foreknowledge.

What God foreknows is determined by the man's choice.

Things are not fixed. If Satan had realized he would defeat himself when he crucified Jesus, he would not have done so.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

That Jesus would defeat Satan by dying on the cross was prophesied throughout the scriptures, but Satan did not understand prophecy any better than we do. If he had understood it, he would not have crucified Jesus. That is exactly what 1 Cor 2:8 is telling us. Satan's actions were not fixed in stone, he had choice. But God in his foreknowledge KNEW what choice Satan would make.

Foeknowledge of God linked together with Him predestinating the elect though, as it implies that God Himself is deterning those who can come to Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Sure they can, Paul shows sinners who are servants to sin can obey the gospel and be saved.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

This scripture absolutely refutes your view. Sinners can freely respond to the gospel and obey it, even while they are servants of sin.

AFER the Holy spirit has done His work on them to enable them to respond in such a fashion!

Much??? What kind of wiggle word is that? :laugh:

God detetermines much of what has and will happen directly by causing that, and in the other situations, he permits that to happen, but always in accordance with his sovereign will!

 

[OldRegular]

One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals. -- From www.gotquestions.org​

The above is just one example of a statement of the Prescient View. Basically, according to this view of Predestination God chooses the "elect" according to His foreknowledge of the individual's choice. Wouldn't you say that His foreknowledge is an aspect of His omniscience?

So, God would know if a person were "elect" when the person was a fully cognitive adult human being. God would also know when the same human being as an immature child. God would know if this person were "elect" even before the individual was born and incapable of making any kind of rational choice. God knows perfectly all things because He is All-Knowing.

Following this line of reasoning into Eternity Past, God would actually foreknow this person as either being "elect" or "non-elect" at/before/during His creation of that person's soul. It is impossible for God to NOT know something. And a created soul could not exist as both "elect" and "non-elect" in the mind of God anymore so than a soul could exist as neither. When God brings a person into existence He has already created that person as either one or the other. God would never conceive of any individual person in a way other than the way in which He did, in fact, create that person; otherwise, that would actually result in a 'different' person. And it doesn't matter how far back in Eternity you go, you can never place finite created souls before The Infinite Omniscient God.

It could be said that God brings "elect" and "non-elect" persons into existence (all the while knowing which is which) even before those souls have themselves had a single conscious thought.

If all the above is true, then His foreknowledge cannot be based upon a choice made by a person. That would require the absurd notion that a person could exist (in order to make a choice) and in the same way not exist in the mind of God. Logically, God cannot know AND not know; just as He cannot create a rock heavier than He can lift.

It seems to me that the Prescient View must actually deny Foreknowledge/Omniscience because it demands that God at some point does not know something about a person (the choice that they might potentially make).

If I read the above correctly the view you call "prescient" admits to the omniscience of God but denies His Sovereignty! That is, He elects based on man's choice not His!

 

[Yeshua1]

If I read the above correctly the view you call "prescient" admits to the omniscience of God but denies His Sovereignty! That is, He elects based on man's choice not His!

God election is based directly upon we will respond to the gospel...

Charles Finney 101...

 

[OldRegular]

God election is based directly upon we will respond to the gospel...

Charles Finney 101...

God elects some to Salvation in Jesus Christ according to His Sovereign will, not according to what man does. It is called Unconditional Election!

 

[Yeshua1]

God elects some to Salvation in Jesus Christ according to His Sovereign will, not according to what man does. It is called Unconditional Election!

I agree with you, was answering the prior quote made, saying that holding to Gods foreknowledge of a sinner making the choice for jesus is what they base election upon!

 

[Winman]

God detetermines much of what has and will happen directly by causing that, and in the other situations, he permits that to happen, but always in accordance with his sovereign will!

Well, according to Romans 6:17-18 God allows sinners who are servants of sin to obey the gospel, and the moment they do, they are made free from sin and become servants of righteousness.

That must be his sovereign will, no?

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, according to Romans 6:17-18 God allows sinners who are servants of sin to obey the gospel, and the moment they do, they are made free from sin and become servants of righteousness.

That must be his sovereign will, no?

You forgot to add in that they are able to do that once the Holy Spirit enabled them to do such!

 

[Winman]

You forgot to add in that they are able to do that once the Holy Spirit enabled them to do such!

Baloney, Paul said they were "servants of sin" when they obeyed the gospel from the heart. He did not teach that they had to be regenerated to believe, they were able to believe while they were yet sinners.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It was only AFTER believing the gospel that these sinners were set free from sin and became servants of righteousness. This scripture is perfectly clear and very easy to understand. You have no excuse.

Have you no fear of God? You are perverting the word of God. Not wise, not wise at all.

 

[Yeshua1]

Baloney, Paul said they were "servants of sin" when they obeyed the gospel from the heart. He did not teach that they had to be regenerated to believe, they were able to believe while they were yet sinners.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It was only AFTER believing the gospel that these sinners were set free from sin and became servants of righteousness. This scripture is perfectly clear and very easy to understand. You have no excuse.

Have you no fear of God? You are perverting the word of God. Not wise, not wise at all.

Again, it was AFTER salvation that they were able to no longer be slaves to sin, not before, aing them to Christ!nd their salvation was the Holy spirit bringing them to Christ and enabling them to believe unto him!

 

[Winman]

Again, it was AFTER salvation that they were able to no longer be slaves to sin, not before, aing them to Christ!nd their salvation was the Holy spirit bringing them to Christ and enabling them to believe unto him!

False. Paul said these Romans were servants to sin, nevertheless they were able to obey the gospel from the heart.

In fact, this is how the NKJV words this verse.

NKJV Rom 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

You cannot change the word of God because it contradicts and refutes your false views. You need to abandon the false doctrines of Calvinism and believe the word of God.

Or do you prefer Calvinism over the scriptures?