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Does The RCC Teach true Gospel/Jesus?
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seekingthetruth
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Proof Part 1
Elder Ariel West, of Texas, prepared the following brief sketch by century of the Baptists through nineteen centuries. - Taken from The Baptists in All Ages, by Elder J. S. Newman.
FIRST CENTURY: There were churches in Asia Minor, Southern Europe and England. They were first called Christians at Antioch. Saul persecuted the churches. Nero and Trajan were emperors of the Roman Empire in this century. Small departures by some were made in the churches.
SECOND CENTURY: Baptists in same countries as first century. Pliny, governor of Bithynia (see Hassell's Church History, page 360). Polycarp was pastor of the Church at Smyrna until his death by burning in about 166 A. D. (see Shackelford, page 54). More departures over a larger territory in this century. Marcus Aurelius Antoninus came to the throne of the Roman Empire.
THIRD CENTURY: Churches in southern Europe, England, Wales, Asia Minor, and North Africa. Christian churches called Paterines, Novatians and Montanists. Diocletian became Emperor of Rome. Wholesale departures, and the above names of Christian churches given to them by those departing from the faith. (Hassell, p. 367, 377; Ray, p. 315; Robinson's Ecclesiastical Researches, p. 126.)
FOURTH CENTURY: Churches in same countries as in preceding centuries. Christian churches called Donatists in parts of north Africa; also Puritans in Wales. Constantine the Great became emperor of Rome. Council of Nice held A. D. 325. First recorded infant baptism, 370 A. D. (Hassell, p. 386, 387, 389; Shackelford, p. 49; Orchard, p. 92, 93).
FIFTH CENTURY: Those departing from the faith established and enforced popery in 416. A new name given to true Christian churches in some localities, to-wit, Cathari.
SIXTH CENTURY: Catholics call Baptist or Christian churches Ana-Baptists for the first time (Hassell, p. 407-409).
SEVENTH CENTURY: True Christian churches in Armenia. The Catholics call them Paulicians (Hassell, p. 417; Smith, 359-360).
EIGHTH CENTURY: True Christian churches still called Ana-Baptists, Donatists. The Catholics originate the doctrine of transubstantiation in 780 A. D. In the first part of this century, Pope Stephen II instituted pouring as a legal ordinance for baptism in the Catholic church.
NINTH CENTURY: Ana-Baptists in Bulgaria. In this century the Greek Catholics and the Roman Catholics became separate bodies.
TENTH CENTURY: Baptists in Wales, Italy, and France, and called Paulicians and Ana-baptists in different countries (Smith, p. 359-360).
ELEVENTH CENTURY: Baptists were in Italy and France under the name of Paulicians and Paterines (Smith, p. 358, 360, 363).
TWELFTH CENTURY: Baptists were called Paterines, Henricians, Arnoldists and Petrobrussians (Hassell, p. 436, 438; Smith, 219).
THIRTEENTH CENTURY: Baptists were found in Italy, France, and Germany, and were called Waldenses or Vaudois, Ana-baptists, and Albigenses (Smith, page 570 to 585).
FOURTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist churches were in Germany, England, and Poland; called Lollards in England, Waldenses and Ana-baptists on the continent (Crosby, Vol. 2, page 46; Orchard's English Baptists, p. 118; Smith, page 251)).
FIFTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist churches in England and Valleys of Piedmont. In this century John Huss, a reformer, was burned at the stake (1415), but he was not a Baptist. In this century Martin Luther was born (born November 10, 1483, died February 18, 1546), but let it be understood that his reformation had no connection with the Baptists. In this century thousands of women and children of the Waldenses were put to death by persecution (Crosby, Vol. 1, p. 18).
SIXTEENTH CENTURY: Baptists were found in France and Germany under the name of Waldenses. The Lutheran church came out of Rome as a distinct body in about 1552. The Episcopal church came out of Rome in 1534, and the Presbyterian in 1527.
SEVENTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist Churches were called Waldenses, Baptist, and Ana-Baptist. The first Baptist church in America was organized at Newport, Rhode Island, in 1638, by Dr. John Clarke and eleven others.
EIGHTEENTH CENTURY: New School Baptist movement was started in England by William Carey and Andrew Fuller. The Methodists became a distinct body from the Episcopal church in 1785.
NINETEENTH CENTURY: The New School movement spread to America. Black Rock Address, and withdrawal by the Old School Baptists. Campbellites became a distinct sect in 1827.
References: 1. Hassell: History of the Church of God from Creation to A. D. 1885, by Elders C. B. and Sylvester Hassell. 2. Smith: Smith & Cheetham's Dictionary of Christian Antiquities. 3. Shackelford: J. A. Shackelford's Historical Chart showing the Origin and History of the Baptists, c. 1891. 4. Crosby: Crosby's History of the English Baptists. 5. Orchard's History of the English Baptists.
Elder Ariel West, of Texas, prepared the following brief sketch by century of the Baptists through nineteen centuries. - Taken from The Baptists in All Ages, by Elder J. S. Newman.
FIRST CENTURY: There were churches in Asia Minor, Southern Europe and England. They were first called Christians at Antioch. Saul persecuted the churches. Nero and Trajan were emperors of the Roman Empire in this century. Small departures by some were made in the churches.
SECOND CENTURY: Baptists in same countries as first century. Pliny, governor of Bithynia (see Hassell's Church History, page 360). Polycarp was pastor of the Church at Smyrna until his death by burning in about 166 A. D. (see Shackelford, page 54). More departures over a larger territory in this century. Marcus Aurelius Antoninus came to the throne of the Roman Empire.
THIRD CENTURY: Churches in southern Europe, England, Wales, Asia Minor, and North Africa. Christian churches called Paterines, Novatians and Montanists. Diocletian became Emperor of Rome. Wholesale departures, and the above names of Christian churches given to them by those departing from the faith. (Hassell, p. 367, 377; Ray, p. 315; Robinson's Ecclesiastical Researches, p. 126.)
FOURTH CENTURY: Churches in same countries as in preceding centuries. Christian churches called Donatists in parts of north Africa; also Puritans in Wales. Constantine the Great became emperor of Rome. Council of Nice held A. D. 325. First recorded infant baptism, 370 A. D. (Hassell, p. 386, 387, 389; Shackelford, p. 49; Orchard, p. 92, 93).
FIFTH CENTURY: Those departing from the faith established and enforced popery in 416. A new name given to true Christian churches in some localities, to-wit, Cathari.
SIXTH CENTURY: Catholics call Baptist or Christian churches Ana-Baptists for the first time (Hassell, p. 407-409).
SEVENTH CENTURY: True Christian churches in Armenia. The Catholics call them Paulicians (Hassell, p. 417; Smith, 359-360).
EIGHTH CENTURY: True Christian churches still called Ana-Baptists, Donatists. The Catholics originate the doctrine of transubstantiation in 780 A. D. In the first part of this century, Pope Stephen II instituted pouring as a legal ordinance for baptism in the Catholic church.
NINTH CENTURY: Ana-Baptists in Bulgaria. In this century the Greek Catholics and the Roman Catholics became separate bodies.
TENTH CENTURY: Baptists in Wales, Italy, and France, and called Paulicians and Ana-baptists in different countries (Smith, p. 359-360).
ELEVENTH CENTURY: Baptists were in Italy and France under the name of Paulicians and Paterines (Smith, p. 358, 360, 363).
TWELFTH CENTURY: Baptists were called Paterines, Henricians, Arnoldists and Petrobrussians (Hassell, p. 436, 438; Smith, 219).
THIRTEENTH CENTURY: Baptists were found in Italy, France, and Germany, and were called Waldenses or Vaudois, Ana-baptists, and Albigenses (Smith, page 570 to 585).
FOURTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist churches were in Germany, England, and Poland; called Lollards in England, Waldenses and Ana-baptists on the continent (Crosby, Vol. 2, page 46; Orchard's English Baptists, p. 118; Smith, page 251)).
FIFTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist churches in England and Valleys of Piedmont. In this century John Huss, a reformer, was burned at the stake (1415), but he was not a Baptist. In this century Martin Luther was born (born November 10, 1483, died February 18, 1546), but let it be understood that his reformation had no connection with the Baptists. In this century thousands of women and children of the Waldenses were put to death by persecution (Crosby, Vol. 1, p. 18).
SIXTEENTH CENTURY: Baptists were found in France and Germany under the name of Waldenses. The Lutheran church came out of Rome as a distinct body in about 1552. The Episcopal church came out of Rome in 1534, and the Presbyterian in 1527.
SEVENTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist Churches were called Waldenses, Baptist, and Ana-Baptist. The first Baptist church in America was organized at Newport, Rhode Island, in 1638, by Dr. John Clarke and eleven others.
EIGHTEENTH CENTURY: New School Baptist movement was started in England by William Carey and Andrew Fuller. The Methodists became a distinct body from the Episcopal church in 1785.
NINETEENTH CENTURY: The New School movement spread to America. Black Rock Address, and withdrawal by the Old School Baptists. Campbellites became a distinct sect in 1827.
References: 1. Hassell: History of the Church of God from Creation to A. D. 1885, by Elders C. B. and Sylvester Hassell. 2. Smith: Smith & Cheetham's Dictionary of Christian Antiquities. 3. Shackelford: J. A. Shackelford's Historical Chart showing the Origin and History of the Baptists, c. 1891. 4. Crosby: Crosby's History of the English Baptists. 5. Orchard's History of the English Baptists.
seekingthetruth
New Member
Proof Part 2
The Novatain movement began in 251 AD in protest of Catholic doctrines, and continued until the reformation in the 16th century. The Novatain doctrines are pretty much concistent with modern Baptist doctrine, such as believer's baptism:
""To remove all human appendages. the Novatains said to candidates, ‘If you be a virtuous believer, and will accede to our confederacy against sin, you may be admitted among us by baptism, or if any catholic has baptized you before by rebaptism.’" (Orchard, Ibid. p.55)
The Paulicians were established some time in the first 6 centuries. They too resembled the modern Baptist churches in doctrine:
(1). They recognized no human authority over their churches. "These people were called Acephali, or headless." (Orchard, Ibid. p. 130) This could scarcely be said to be true of a Protestant denomination upon the face of the earth. It is a Baptist characteristic. Baptists call Jesus Christ the head of their churches.
(2). "They made constant. use of the Old and New Testaments." (A History of the Baptists, Ibid. p55). Baptists, today, regard the Bible, and the Bible alone, as their sole rule of faith and practice.
(3). They were decidedly Baptistic in the order of their keeping of the New Testament commandments. "They held that men must repent and believe, and then at a mature age ask for baptism, which alone admitted them into the church." (A History of the Baptists, Ibid. p. 55) Can it be fairly said of any Protestant denomination that they observe this order of the commandments? No, this is a Baptist characteristic.
(4) They were far more Baptistic than protestant in their administration of the ordinance of baptism. The following quote from historical authority speaks for itself.
‘It is evident,’ observes Mosheim, ‘they rejected the baptism of infants.’ They baptized and rebaptized by immersion. They would have been taken for downright Anabaptists." (Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, Oxford, 1821)
http://www.pbministries.org/History/Goodwin_&_Frazier/churches_02.htm
And finally the Waldensians. They are arguably the oldest non-catholic church, dating back to apostolitic times.
Theodore Beza, the sixteenth century reformer, voiced the same sentiment, when he said:
"As for the Waldenses, I may be permitted to call them the very seed of the primitive and purer Christian church, since they are those that have been upheld, as is abundantly manifest, by the wonderful providence of God, so that neither these endless storms and tempests by which the whole Christian world has been shaken for so many succeeding ages and the Western part so miserably oppressed by the Bishop of Rome, falsely so called; nor those horrible persecutions which have been expressly raised against them, were able so far to prevail as to make them bend, or yield a voluntary subjection to the Roman Tyranny and idolatry." (The Churches of the Valley Of Piemont, Sir Samuel Morland, Baptist Sunday School Committee Edition, page 6).
Futhermore, their Articles of Confession published in 1120 A.D. reflect the same articles of faith adopted by most Baptist churches today.
Article I
"We believe and firmly hold all that which is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, which is called the Apostles Creed, accounting for heresy whatsoever is disagreeing, and not consonant to the said twelve articles."
Article II
"We do believe that there is one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Article III
"We acknowledge for the holy canonical Scriptures, the books of the Holy Bible, viz.:—" (Note, here follows the sixty-six books of the Holy Bible according to the Authorized Version of 1611).
Article IV
"The books aforesaid teach this, that there is one God, Almighty, all-wise, and all-good, who has made all things by his goodness; for he formed Adam in his own image and likeness, but that by the envy of the devil, and the disobedience of the said Adam, sin has entered into the world, and that we are sinners in Adam and by Adam."
Article V
‘That Christ was promised to our fathers who received the law, that so knowing by the law their sin, unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ, to satisfy for their sins, and accomplish the law by himself."
Article VI
"That Christ was born in the time appointed by God the Father. That is to say, in the time when all iniquity abounded, and not for the cause of good works, for all were sinners; but that he might show us grace and mercy as being faithful."
Article VII
"That Christ is our life, truth, peace and righteousness, also our pastor, advocate, sacrifice, and priest, who died for the salvation of all those that believe, and is risen for our justification."
Article VIII
"In like manner, we firmly hold, that there is no other mediator and advocate with God the Father, save only Jesus Christ. And as for the Virgin Mary, that she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and in like manner do we believe concerning all the other saints, viz: that being in heaven, they wait for the resurrection of their bodies at the day of judgment."
Article IX
"We believe that after this life, there are only two places, the one for the saved, and the other for the damned, the which two places we call paradise and hell, absolutely denying that purgatory invented by anti-Christ, and forged contrary to the truth."
Article X
"We have always accounted as an unspeakable abomination before God, all those inventions of men, namely, the feasts and the vigils of saints, the water which they call holy. As likewise to abstain from flesh upon certain days, and the like; but especially their masses."
Article XI
"We esteem for an abomination and as antichristian, all those human inventions which are a trouble or prejudice to the liberty of the spirit."
Article XII
"We do believe that the sacraments are signs of the holy thing, or visible forms of the invisible grace, accounting it good that the faithful sometimes use the said signs or visible forms, if it may be done. However, we believe and hold, that the above said faithful may be saved without receiving the signs aforesaid, in case they have no place nor any means to use them."
Article XIII
"We acknowledge no other sacrament but Baptism and the Lord’s Supper."
Article XIV
"We ought to honour the secular powers by submission, ready obedience, and paying of tributes."
—Source, (The Waldenses, Presbyterian Board of Publication, A. W. Mitchell, pp. 376-378.)
Yeah, there is much proof that the foundation of the modern Baptist church predates the Reformation in the 16th century.
John
The Novatain movement began in 251 AD in protest of Catholic doctrines, and continued until the reformation in the 16th century. The Novatain doctrines are pretty much concistent with modern Baptist doctrine, such as believer's baptism:
""To remove all human appendages. the Novatains said to candidates, ‘If you be a virtuous believer, and will accede to our confederacy against sin, you may be admitted among us by baptism, or if any catholic has baptized you before by rebaptism.’" (Orchard, Ibid. p.55)
The Paulicians were established some time in the first 6 centuries. They too resembled the modern Baptist churches in doctrine:
(1). They recognized no human authority over their churches. "These people were called Acephali, or headless." (Orchard, Ibid. p. 130) This could scarcely be said to be true of a Protestant denomination upon the face of the earth. It is a Baptist characteristic. Baptists call Jesus Christ the head of their churches.
(2). "They made constant. use of the Old and New Testaments." (A History of the Baptists, Ibid. p55). Baptists, today, regard the Bible, and the Bible alone, as their sole rule of faith and practice.
(3). They were decidedly Baptistic in the order of their keeping of the New Testament commandments. "They held that men must repent and believe, and then at a mature age ask for baptism, which alone admitted them into the church." (A History of the Baptists, Ibid. p. 55) Can it be fairly said of any Protestant denomination that they observe this order of the commandments? No, this is a Baptist characteristic.
(4) They were far more Baptistic than protestant in their administration of the ordinance of baptism. The following quote from historical authority speaks for itself.
‘It is evident,’ observes Mosheim, ‘they rejected the baptism of infants.’ They baptized and rebaptized by immersion. They would have been taken for downright Anabaptists." (Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, Oxford, 1821)
http://www.pbministries.org/History/Goodwin_&_Frazier/churches_02.htm
And finally the Waldensians. They are arguably the oldest non-catholic church, dating back to apostolitic times.
Theodore Beza, the sixteenth century reformer, voiced the same sentiment, when he said:
"As for the Waldenses, I may be permitted to call them the very seed of the primitive and purer Christian church, since they are those that have been upheld, as is abundantly manifest, by the wonderful providence of God, so that neither these endless storms and tempests by which the whole Christian world has been shaken for so many succeeding ages and the Western part so miserably oppressed by the Bishop of Rome, falsely so called; nor those horrible persecutions which have been expressly raised against them, were able so far to prevail as to make them bend, or yield a voluntary subjection to the Roman Tyranny and idolatry." (The Churches of the Valley Of Piemont, Sir Samuel Morland, Baptist Sunday School Committee Edition, page 6).
Futhermore, their Articles of Confession published in 1120 A.D. reflect the same articles of faith adopted by most Baptist churches today.
Article I
"We believe and firmly hold all that which is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, which is called the Apostles Creed, accounting for heresy whatsoever is disagreeing, and not consonant to the said twelve articles."
Article II
"We do believe that there is one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Article III
"We acknowledge for the holy canonical Scriptures, the books of the Holy Bible, viz.:—" (Note, here follows the sixty-six books of the Holy Bible according to the Authorized Version of 1611).
Article IV
"The books aforesaid teach this, that there is one God, Almighty, all-wise, and all-good, who has made all things by his goodness; for he formed Adam in his own image and likeness, but that by the envy of the devil, and the disobedience of the said Adam, sin has entered into the world, and that we are sinners in Adam and by Adam."
Article V
‘That Christ was promised to our fathers who received the law, that so knowing by the law their sin, unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ, to satisfy for their sins, and accomplish the law by himself."
Article VI
"That Christ was born in the time appointed by God the Father. That is to say, in the time when all iniquity abounded, and not for the cause of good works, for all were sinners; but that he might show us grace and mercy as being faithful."
Article VII
"That Christ is our life, truth, peace and righteousness, also our pastor, advocate, sacrifice, and priest, who died for the salvation of all those that believe, and is risen for our justification."
Article VIII
"In like manner, we firmly hold, that there is no other mediator and advocate with God the Father, save only Jesus Christ. And as for the Virgin Mary, that she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and in like manner do we believe concerning all the other saints, viz: that being in heaven, they wait for the resurrection of their bodies at the day of judgment."
Article IX
"We believe that after this life, there are only two places, the one for the saved, and the other for the damned, the which two places we call paradise and hell, absolutely denying that purgatory invented by anti-Christ, and forged contrary to the truth."
Article X
"We have always accounted as an unspeakable abomination before God, all those inventions of men, namely, the feasts and the vigils of saints, the water which they call holy. As likewise to abstain from flesh upon certain days, and the like; but especially their masses."
Article XI
"We esteem for an abomination and as antichristian, all those human inventions which are a trouble or prejudice to the liberty of the spirit."
Article XII
"We do believe that the sacraments are signs of the holy thing, or visible forms of the invisible grace, accounting it good that the faithful sometimes use the said signs or visible forms, if it may be done. However, we believe and hold, that the above said faithful may be saved without receiving the signs aforesaid, in case they have no place nor any means to use them."
Article XIII
"We acknowledge no other sacrament but Baptism and the Lord’s Supper."
Article XIV
"We ought to honour the secular powers by submission, ready obedience, and paying of tributes."
—Source, (The Waldenses, Presbyterian Board of Publication, A. W. Mitchell, pp. 376-378.)
Yeah, there is much proof that the foundation of the modern Baptist church predates the Reformation in the 16th century.
John
seekingthetruth
New Member
"Anabaptist History" by Rex Duff
The Welch Baptist started in 63AD. They were known as Mountain Baptist.
All who joined the Welch Baptist were Baptized by Immersion again. They believe in no authority but the Bible, and the Lord’s Supper was symbolic only. See- Ford, pages 32-34.
The Welch Baptist came to America to start Baptist Churches in the 1600 and 1700 hundreds.
In 1663 AD – John Miles came from Wales to Swansea, Mass.
In 1692AD – John Phillips a Welch Baptist came to America.
In 1701AD - Thomas Griffith, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America with 15 members of his Church with him.
In 1703AD – John Thomas, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America
In 1713AD – Thomas Davis, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America.
In 1727AD- Richard Jones, a Welch Baptist Minister arrived in America.
In 1739AD – David Evans, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America.
In 1761AD – Morgan Edwards a Welch Baptist Minister arrived in America.
See – Jarrel, pages 398-399.
What then is the History of the Welch Baptist?
According to Davis, in History of the Welch Baptist, page 7 -- Prudence & his wife Claudia, were saved under the Apostle Paul in Rome in 63AD. Shortly thereafter, they returned home to Wales, with many others who had been saved.
In the year 180AD, two ministers by the names of Faganus and Damicanus, who were born in Wales, but were born again in Rome, and there becoming eminent ministers of the gospel, were sent from Rome, to assist their brethren in Wales. See- D.N. Jackson, (Why I Am A Baptist), page 11.
In this same year, Lucius the Welch King, became the first King in the World to embrace Christ, and he was baptized.
About the year 300AD, the Welch Baptist suffered most terribly and bloody under persecution. This was the 10th pagan persecution under the reign of Dioclesian.
Again, after 600AD, the Welch Baptist suffered greatly, when Austin came from Rome to convert the people to Popery.
Austin, having succeeded in England, was not successful in Wales. The reason being, that the Welch were strong Christians who believed in a separation of Church and State all together. They believed that the Kingdom of Christ is not of this world.
However, the Welch ministers and delegates agreed to meet with Austin. When the Welch would not submit to infant Baptism and Popery, Austin had the Saxons murder all the Welch Ministers and delegates. Many more afterwards, were put to death.
With the leading men being dead, King Cadwalader and the majority of the Welch people submitted to popery, out of fear.
The remaining true AnaBaptist fled to the mountains (Mountain Baptist). According to Thomas’s History, by 1653AD, there was only six or seven true Baptist Churches left, all in the mountains. See-History of the Welch Baptist, by Davis pages 1-20. A very famous Welch Baptist in the 15th Century was a man named William Tyndale.
This brings us back to the second Century, in AnaBaptist history.
In the Second Century, shortly after the completion of the Bible, a group of God’s true Churches were called Montanist.
They were again known as AnaBaptist, for their teachings on Baptism. See –Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume II, page 429. These Montanist believed in the PreMillennial Return of Christ. See – Vedder, A short History of the Baptist, page 60. They also believed in Separate & Independent Churches, purity in the Church, and only saved could be Baptized by Immersion, by their free choice. (See Ford, Origin of the Baptist, pages 92 & 93.)
They disapproved of infant Baptism, defended non-resistance, and taught strongly the prayer veil. (See Mennonites in Europe, page 3). Tertullian, a second Century writer, became a Montanist. NOTE- He would have had to reject his earlier teaching of Baptismal Regeneration to become a Montanist! See - Tertullian, page 109.
Also, in the Second Century through the Reformation, was a group known As the Waldenses. They were also called AnaBaptist because of their teachings on Baptism. They believed a person needed to be saved first, than have Baptism by Immersion only, placing them into a true church, the church only being local. This group separated themselves not only from latter Rome, but other Religious groups –Clover, page 324. The name Waldense, came from Peter Waldo, a rich merchant of the 12th Century. However, he was not the founder of this group. According to the Bishop of Meaux, the Churches of this Movement began in 120 AD. (See Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, by Allex, pages 191-193).
The Waldenses taught non-resistance, no lawsuits, no oaths, no attendance at worldly amusements, and against the worship of relics and purgatory. Their ministers were not salaried, but were well supported by the membership. (See – Mennonites in Europe, pages 5 & 6).
Just why did groups separate from the majority of Churches?
The answer lies in even more Heresy that was coming into the Churches.
Around 150AD – Some Churches started practicing open Communion.
Another heresy was Sacradotalism. This put God’s people into 2 classes, the laity and Clergy class.
Also in the second Century came the heresy of Sophistication. The Bible had command not to make images in
Exodus 20:4,
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”. The problem was that, man began to make images to teach truth. This led to praying to idols, and holding images as tokens of religion. It became necessary to have symbols in order to worship. Even today, how many “religious symbols” are in the average Baptist Church? This is a carry over of Sophistication. In the second Century Tetullian (160-230AD) even defended Christians against accusations of “Cross Worship”. How many Baptist Churches today have a cross, a fish symbol, a Catholic Steeple, flags, and Catholic pictures of Saints and a Hippy Jesus!
“Toward the conclusion of the second century, one Montanus, who lived in a Phrygian village called Pepuza, undertook a mission to restore Christianity to its native simplicity. One class of professors being at the period carried away with Egyptian symbols, while others made up a system of religion from philosophic notions, oriental customs, and a portion of the gospel; apparently prompted this humble individual to attempt a reformation, or rather a restoration, of the primitive order of things. Being destitute of classical lore himself, he required it not in others who were willing to further his designs. He was decidedly hostile to those ministers, who with the new system, emanated from Alexandria”. – See Orchard, pages 117-118.
Another heresy in the second Century was Sacramentalism. This heresy began to change the Scriptural balance between the substance and the symbol.
In the 3rd Century there was a group known as the Novatians. They were also called AnaBaptist. – See Moshem, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Volume 1, page 203.
These Novatians claimed they were the only true Church. They recognized no authority but theirs. – Vedder, page 64.
The Novatians were strong in their belief in Repentance, for Salvation. They believe a true Church must be pure and holy. They believe in Immersion only after Salvation. – Ford, page 88.
The Novatians continued up until the Reformation and the rise of the AnaBaptist Movement. See- A History of the Baptist, by John Christian, page 44.
The Novatians would not let back into membership those who had denied Christ during persecution.
The Welch Baptist started in 63AD. They were known as Mountain Baptist.
All who joined the Welch Baptist were Baptized by Immersion again. They believe in no authority but the Bible, and the Lord’s Supper was symbolic only. See- Ford, pages 32-34.
The Welch Baptist came to America to start Baptist Churches in the 1600 and 1700 hundreds.
In 1663 AD – John Miles came from Wales to Swansea, Mass.
In 1692AD – John Phillips a Welch Baptist came to America.
In 1701AD - Thomas Griffith, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America with 15 members of his Church with him.
In 1703AD – John Thomas, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America
In 1713AD – Thomas Davis, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America.
In 1727AD- Richard Jones, a Welch Baptist Minister arrived in America.
In 1739AD – David Evans, a Welch Baptist Minister came to America.
In 1761AD – Morgan Edwards a Welch Baptist Minister arrived in America.
See – Jarrel, pages 398-399.
What then is the History of the Welch Baptist?
According to Davis, in History of the Welch Baptist, page 7 -- Prudence & his wife Claudia, were saved under the Apostle Paul in Rome in 63AD. Shortly thereafter, they returned home to Wales, with many others who had been saved.
In the year 180AD, two ministers by the names of Faganus and Damicanus, who were born in Wales, but were born again in Rome, and there becoming eminent ministers of the gospel, were sent from Rome, to assist their brethren in Wales. See- D.N. Jackson, (Why I Am A Baptist), page 11.
In this same year, Lucius the Welch King, became the first King in the World to embrace Christ, and he was baptized.
About the year 300AD, the Welch Baptist suffered most terribly and bloody under persecution. This was the 10th pagan persecution under the reign of Dioclesian.
Again, after 600AD, the Welch Baptist suffered greatly, when Austin came from Rome to convert the people to Popery.
Austin, having succeeded in England, was not successful in Wales. The reason being, that the Welch were strong Christians who believed in a separation of Church and State all together. They believed that the Kingdom of Christ is not of this world.
However, the Welch ministers and delegates agreed to meet with Austin. When the Welch would not submit to infant Baptism and Popery, Austin had the Saxons murder all the Welch Ministers and delegates. Many more afterwards, were put to death.
With the leading men being dead, King Cadwalader and the majority of the Welch people submitted to popery, out of fear.
The remaining true AnaBaptist fled to the mountains (Mountain Baptist). According to Thomas’s History, by 1653AD, there was only six or seven true Baptist Churches left, all in the mountains. See-History of the Welch Baptist, by Davis pages 1-20. A very famous Welch Baptist in the 15th Century was a man named William Tyndale.
This brings us back to the second Century, in AnaBaptist history.
In the Second Century, shortly after the completion of the Bible, a group of God’s true Churches were called Montanist.
They were again known as AnaBaptist, for their teachings on Baptism. See –Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume II, page 429. These Montanist believed in the PreMillennial Return of Christ. See – Vedder, A short History of the Baptist, page 60. They also believed in Separate & Independent Churches, purity in the Church, and only saved could be Baptized by Immersion, by their free choice. (See Ford, Origin of the Baptist, pages 92 & 93.)
They disapproved of infant Baptism, defended non-resistance, and taught strongly the prayer veil. (See Mennonites in Europe, page 3). Tertullian, a second Century writer, became a Montanist. NOTE- He would have had to reject his earlier teaching of Baptismal Regeneration to become a Montanist! See - Tertullian, page 109.
Also, in the Second Century through the Reformation, was a group known As the Waldenses. They were also called AnaBaptist because of their teachings on Baptism. They believed a person needed to be saved first, than have Baptism by Immersion only, placing them into a true church, the church only being local. This group separated themselves not only from latter Rome, but other Religious groups –Clover, page 324. The name Waldense, came from Peter Waldo, a rich merchant of the 12th Century. However, he was not the founder of this group. According to the Bishop of Meaux, the Churches of this Movement began in 120 AD. (See Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, by Allex, pages 191-193).
The Waldenses taught non-resistance, no lawsuits, no oaths, no attendance at worldly amusements, and against the worship of relics and purgatory. Their ministers were not salaried, but were well supported by the membership. (See – Mennonites in Europe, pages 5 & 6).
Just why did groups separate from the majority of Churches?
The answer lies in even more Heresy that was coming into the Churches.
Around 150AD – Some Churches started practicing open Communion.
Another heresy was Sacradotalism. This put God’s people into 2 classes, the laity and Clergy class.
Also in the second Century came the heresy of Sophistication. The Bible had command not to make images in
Exodus 20:4,
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”. The problem was that, man began to make images to teach truth. This led to praying to idols, and holding images as tokens of religion. It became necessary to have symbols in order to worship. Even today, how many “religious symbols” are in the average Baptist Church? This is a carry over of Sophistication. In the second Century Tetullian (160-230AD) even defended Christians against accusations of “Cross Worship”. How many Baptist Churches today have a cross, a fish symbol, a Catholic Steeple, flags, and Catholic pictures of Saints and a Hippy Jesus!
“Toward the conclusion of the second century, one Montanus, who lived in a Phrygian village called Pepuza, undertook a mission to restore Christianity to its native simplicity. One class of professors being at the period carried away with Egyptian symbols, while others made up a system of religion from philosophic notions, oriental customs, and a portion of the gospel; apparently prompted this humble individual to attempt a reformation, or rather a restoration, of the primitive order of things. Being destitute of classical lore himself, he required it not in others who were willing to further his designs. He was decidedly hostile to those ministers, who with the new system, emanated from Alexandria”. – See Orchard, pages 117-118.
Another heresy in the second Century was Sacramentalism. This heresy began to change the Scriptural balance between the substance and the symbol.
In the 3rd Century there was a group known as the Novatians. They were also called AnaBaptist. – See Moshem, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Volume 1, page 203.
These Novatians claimed they were the only true Church. They recognized no authority but theirs. – Vedder, page 64.
The Novatians were strong in their belief in Repentance, for Salvation. They believe a true Church must be pure and holy. They believe in Immersion only after Salvation. – Ford, page 88.
The Novatians continued up until the Reformation and the rise of the AnaBaptist Movement. See- A History of the Baptist, by John Christian, page 44.
The Novatians would not let back into membership those who had denied Christ during persecution.
Seekingthetruth, this Landmarkist view of Baptist history is rejected by most Baptists. To the best of my knowledge it is rejected by Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship seminary of the largest group of Baptists in the world.* It would seem that if these apocryphal accounts had any merit they would be advocated by all Baptists everywhere to help demonstrate the authenticity of the Baptist faith. But they are not. Maybe it's because it was made up by wishful thinkers?
*If I'm wrong about SBTS, glfredrick will probably correct me.
*If I'm wrong about SBTS, glfredrick will probably correct me.
Your analogy about the SBC is comparable to the RCC being the biggest representative of Christianity. Perhaps they are, but that doesn't make them right.
seekingthetruth
New Member
At my church we believe that:
Communion is open to all believers, not just local members.
All believer's are part of the Kindom of God, not just certain baptists.
We accept believer's baptism from any church that administers it scripturally.
So, we are definately NOT landmarkists.
We do however hold to Baptist successionsim in that we believe that the Baptist faith was practiced and taught long before the Reformation, and those churches evolved into what we know as Baptists today.
I would like to point out that the Anabaptist churches that were formed when the members seperated themselves from the RCC, merely adopted Anabaptism, they didn't create it. Anabaptists existed for hundreds of years, but mostly in hiding for fear of persecution by the RCC.
John
Alive in Christ
New Member
The Catholic religious organisation DOES NOT preach the true gosple Jesus Christ.
They clearly proclaim a FALSE gosple, while at the same time placing a CURSE upon the true gosple.
They engage in idoltry, even to they extent of goddess worship regarding Mary.
And all of that is over and above the ongoing pedofile priest issue.
They clearly proclaim a FALSE gosple, while at the same time placing a CURSE upon the true gosple.
They engage in idoltry, even to they extent of goddess worship regarding Mary.
And all of that is over and above the ongoing pedofile priest issue.
>The Catholic religious organisation DOES NOT preach the true gosple Jesus Christ.
Have you read the Catholic Catechism? With which paragraphs do you disagree?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Have you read the Catholic Catechism? With which paragraphs do you disagree?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Alive in Christ
New Member
I wish all of these baptists would STOP with all of this (((WE ARE NOT PROTESTANTS))) nonsense. Its ridiculous.
Look, this is not rocket science...
1) What was the essence of the "protesting" that took place all those centuries ago?
Answer...It was christians who were PROTESTING against the falshoods and wickedness of the catholic church
2) What are we christians doing..right now..here on this discussion board ?
Answer...We are (((PROTESTING)) against the falshoods and wickedness of the catholic church!
And we baptists, along with other groups, have been rightfully PROTESTING against these things for 2000 years now, right up to today.
So, since we have been, and presently are protesting, right now against the falsehoods of the Catholic chuch...
STOP CLAIMING YOU ARE NOT A PROTESTANT! :laugh:
Its disengenuinous.
Look, this is not rocket science...
1) What was the essence of the "protesting" that took place all those centuries ago?
Answer...It was christians who were PROTESTING against the falshoods and wickedness of the catholic church
2) What are we christians doing..right now..here on this discussion board ?
Answer...We are (((PROTESTING)) against the falshoods and wickedness of the catholic church!
And we baptists, along with other groups, have been rightfully PROTESTING against these things for 2000 years now, right up to today.
So, since we have been, and presently are protesting, right now against the falsehoods of the Catholic chuch...
STOP CLAIMING YOU ARE NOT A PROTESTANT! :laugh:
Its disengenuinous.
seekingthetruth
New Member
It depends on your definition of protestant.
Catholics say that EVERY denomination that is not Catholic is protestant. This is simply not true because every denomination did not emerge from the Reformation.
Most protestant denominations with English roots say that true protestant denominations were established during the Reformation to protest the RCC. I agree with this, but Baptists had been in existence for hundreds of years before this, thus they don't fall under this definition.
Now, you brought up an interesting point. If the definition of protestant is simply protesting the RCC, then Baptists could be called protestants because they protested and seperated from fellowship with the RCC, but it was around 251 A.D., NOT during the Reformation.
The Anabaptist churches that were established during the Reformation did not create Baptist doctrine, they simply adopted it.
I don't believe the New Testament church disappeared for 1200 years. God preserved it in spite of the RCC's attempt to destroy it. Baptists are a direct decendent of that preservation. The chain was never broken.
John
believe they hold to it washes away taint of original Sin, and bring about regeneration, "magical water"
Dr. Walter
New Member
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.
What about this for starts? Rome confuses Christ with the church; confuses Christ with the ordinances; confuses justifcation with sanctification.
The Gospel is the power of salvation and Paul who said that, also said that this gospel was the same as the pre-Matthew gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 26:22-23) and there was no church or ordinances prior to Matthew but there was the SAME gospel (Jn. 14:6 with Acts 4:12; Acts 10:43; etc.).
Paul claimed the power of salvation is found in the gospel but not in baptism (1 Cor. 1:17-18).
Sacrament: A visible sign of invisible grace. Are they scriptural? Well let’s see.
1. Baptism. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” John 3:5. See also 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38. The visible sign is water.
2. Confirmation. “Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:17. The visible sign is laying on of hands.
3. Holy Eucharist. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:54. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16. The visible signs are bread and wine.
4. Reconciliation. “And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.’” John 20:22-23. See also 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 9:8. The visible sign is the statement of absolution by the confessor.
5. Holy Matrimony. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Mark 10:7-9. The visible sign is the exchange of the marriage vows.
6. Holy Orders (ordination). “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.” 1 Timothy 4:14. See also 2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 6:6. The visible sign is the laying on of hands.
7. Anointing of the Sick. “Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.” James 5:14-15. The visible signs are praying and anointing.
The sacraments don't confer grace. The Holy Spirit confers grace through the sacraments, somewhat analogous to the way a hose carries water, and faith is the sine qua non of them all.
raying:There is nothing about baptism in John 3:5; no where indicated.
None of the other verses teach baptismal regeneration either.
Baptismal regeneration was one of the first errors that entered into the church. It is as good as saying that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to take away our sins; that the atonement didn't make full payment. The person being baptized mocks Jesus and literally says: "See Jesus, I helped you pay part of the price for my sins." How blasphemous!!
Yep, that was confirmation all right--confirmation to the other Jews that the gospel had been received by the Gentiles. Do you have first generation Jews in your church that need confirmation that the gospel is now being accepted by the Gentiles? Then you are practicing a fruitless ceremony.
Unless you are cannibalistic, they are symbolic of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross: the wine being symbolic of the blood that was shed, and the bread being symbolic of the body that was sacrificed for us. "This do til he comes again." It looks forward to the coming of Christ.
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? (Mark 2:7)
--They were right about Christ in one aspect. Only God can forgive sins. Thus your priests and others that practice the same are committing blasphemy as the verse says. Christ could forgive the man because He was God. For him it wasn't blasphemy.
Every church marries people.
This is not a spiritual gift. It is a doctrine of demons. It has led to sexual abuse and scandals all throughout the world. Even the present Pope is being presently investigated for past allegations of sexual abuse.
It is a doctrine of demons:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1)
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:3)
--Forbidding to marry is a doctrine of devils (demons).
Nothing wrong with praying for the sick. God won't always heal them. Sometimes he will and sometimes he won't. His will be done.
God doesn't use sacraments; that is a myth. It is not taught anywhere in the Bible.
Are you kidding me with this question. The Roman Catholic Church is soooo messed up that they should just disband & start over.....this time with a bible in hand & read it instead of the money they collect & manage.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Do they? Sorry, I don't even know what an "invitation hymn" is, so I couldn't make it's first verse my "timer" for early escape from a church service, even supposing that I wanted to "escape".
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