Does The RCC Teach true Gospel/Jesus?

[The Biblicist]

HP: Very succinctly stated. They cannot, just as you say, because they will not. Fallen mankind is in a state of willing disobedience to known commandments of God. They love selfishness. They are not mere lumps on a log floating downstream due to some inherited nature, but rather are willing rebels against God and His laws.

I agree, but is that active inclination toward evil something they can help change? Isn't that like telling a person who hates you and loves it so, that they can be saved from that condition if they will simply be willing not to love it so? Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[Jeremiah2911]

There is a lot in your post that I could comment on however I want to get to this question because it is in reality the root question. I am a truelly a born again believer in both the Catholic and Protestant sense of the term. I once lived in sin and had no thought toward or of God. I was preached to and shown the gospel of Salvation by faith through grace. I believed it in my heart. I repented (said I was sorry then turned 180 degrees from my previous life).

Hello again! I wrote a very long post just to kind of tell you where I am and have been and I appreciate your testimony and I have learned by reading your posts. First question is, where did you hear the Gospel of Salvation by faith through grace? Where were you preached to? Later on you mention my statement of "salvation by grace through faith"--yes I didn't say alone, but I didn't add anything to it either.....My premise is that salvific faith itself is by the grace of God [if you have read RC Sproul you should understand that]--yes man can fabricate and "work at" faith; however, if it doesn't come from God he will find himself somewhere in the parable of the sower [not the good soil either ]

By God's grace my life immediately changed and I had a hunger for God's word. I went to Christian churches and universities. I've been door to door. I've been on missionary trips. I've helped build churches in Africa, England, and Main. Been to a few Nicky Criuz conserts and was moved by his testimony. Read the cross and the switchblade several times. Became an efficienado of Christian contemporary groups (when I was young). Ie... Michael Card (My favorite), Amy Grant, Sandy Patty (was sadden when I heard both these women got divorced), Keith Green (still love his music though he was anti-catholic), Michael W. Smith (I still get chills and goose bumps with his rendition of the Sanctus or Holy Holy Holy), Petra (older stuff like the coloring song) - guess I'm showing my age huh - and Rich Mullins. I looked for good books to read by AW Tozer, RC Sproul, Francis Sheaffer, Elizabeth Elliot (good reflections from her time with her husband and her own mission work), had a copy of My Upmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers at my bed side as well as my copy (and still have it by the way) of Foxe's Book of Martyrs. I met my wife in church (she sang in the chior) and I don't think I had too many friends apart from my home church (which was Southern Baptist) because my life revolved around it. I bring these things up to give you some sense of my life and growth in the faith before returning to the Catholic faith. Which, btw was a huge jump for me because I leaned towards Reformed (TULIP).

First, sounds like we are about the same age as those are the same people I used to listen to! Secondly, any serious student of the Bible will lean towards TULIP whether they accept all the points of the Doctrines of Grace [Calvinism] or Not

And Certainly it didn't happen over night. Lots of study and prayer went into it before I even considered researching it.
Now for your statement. It is clear you've made an assumption with out support and I will show you the error. Here is your statement again First, I find it curious you didn't add alone at the end of faith.

I explained that earlier

That is so often the highlighted aspect. However, you are mistaken when you say the Catholic Church does not believe salvation is by "grace through faith". The Catholic Church does very much believe "salvation is by grace through faith" the common Catholic addition to this statement (much like the protestant's "Alone") is "working in love".

Ok I won't go into the catechism points --my question to you is: if you were to explain to me how someone will go to heaven, you will answer what? The Catholic Church will answer what?

So the premise of the question is a false one. As Catholics we do believe salvation comes from grace through faith. So to succinctly answer your question I haven't rejoined a system that doesn't believe in salvation from grace through faith.

If salvation comes from grace through faith, what is the purpose of the mass? What is the doctrine of transubstantiation? Do I have to have faith in those things to go to heaven? Would you turn someone who is truly seeking to be saved to the Catholic church? Is that how you found salvation? Your testimony seems to say otherwise......A different question: if a child is born into a RC family and goes through all the requirements the Church has, will they go to Heaven? Does the RC Church tell them they are saved [going to Heaven]? I have no doubt there are saved people in the RCC as there are many unsaved people in Protestant Churches, my question is, why would a truly born again believer want to be a part of a system which doesn't teach salvation by faith IN CHRIST ALONE [there I said it for you]

God bless

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Did the gospel come to them "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance"! Is Paul describing how it "came" or how it was received? Does the Greek have a term for "received" if that was what he wanted to convey?

HP: Personally I would see that as drawing an awfully fine line between words. Given the great latitude men take today in translating words such as fornication vs adultery, I believe latitude would be in order here as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1754241#post1754241
HP: It will not return to Him void. It will stand for eternity justifying God for His actions concerning those that turned a deaf ear and an unwilling unyieiding heart. They heard the truth, even though in some measure, yet they would not obey.

Biblicist: Did Paul say the gospel came in TRUTH or did he say it came "not in word only BUT ALSO (in addition to that) in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance"???

HP: Clearly he was speaking to those that were transformed as a result of the Spirit's coming. "In power" could be referring also to spiritual manifestations of miraculous happenings accompanying their salvation. "Much assurance" certainly meant that there was absolutely no doubt as to the transformation of their hearts and lives. "in the Holy Ghost" spoke to the influence of the Spirit upon their hearts and lives.

Biblicist: Again, if Paul was describing how it was RECEIVED instead of how it "came" was there a word for "received" he could have used?

HP: Scripture is written in common parlance. I believe one could use either word in reality to describe the super natural change of heart and life they were privy to. It could be stated they received it just as it came.

Biblicist: Again, what is the value of saying "word only" if the Gospel NEVER comes in "word only" but ALWAYS comes "in power and in the Spirit"??????

HP: Because when the gospel light is rejected ( the gospel presented to an individual by words) there is no power evident, there is no changed life, even though the Spirit was there in truth to complete those demonstrations of power and a changed life IF one would have been willing to receive it. Those that the Apostle is speaking to did NOT receive the gospel in words only, but rather they received a life changing experience via the workings of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and lives.

Biblicist: If we were free to change the words of Scripture to mean "received" instead of "came" and "magnifies the power" instead of "in power" could we not then change any scripture to fit our own chosen soteriology?

HP: If one is trying to support ones soteriology from this passage they might be trying to get it to walk on all four legs in support of it. I do not believe I have done that nor is it my intention in any way. One can try to distinguish minor nuances of words/passages to their detriment. I would hope I am not guilty of such.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: Personally I would see that as drawing an awfully fine line between words. Given the great latitude men take today in translating words such as fornication vs adultery, I believe latitude would be in order here as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1754241#post1754241
HP: It will not return to Him void. It will stand for eternity justifying God for His actions concerning those that turned a deaf ear and an unwilling unyieiding heart. They heard the truth, even though in some measure, yet they would not obey.




HP: Clearly he was speaking to those that were transformed as a result of the Spirit's coming. "In power" could be referring also to spiritual manifestations of miraculous happenings accompanying their salvation. "Much assurance" certainly meant that there was absolutely no doubt as to the transformation of their hearts and lives. "in the Holy Ghost" spoke to the influence of the Spirit upon their hearts and lives.


HP: Scripture is written in common parlance. I believe one could use either word in reality to describe the super natural change of heart and life they were privy to. It could be stated they received it just as it came.


HP: Because when the gospel light is rejected ( the gospel presented to an individual by words) there is no power evident, there is no changed life, even though the Spirit was there in truth to complete those demonstrations of power and a changed life IF one would have been willing to receive it. Those that the Apostle is speaking to did NOT receive the gospel in words only, but rather they received a life changing experience via the workings of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and lives.


HP: If one is trying to support ones soteriology from this passage they might be trying to get it to walk on all four legs in support of it. I do not believe I have done that nor is it my intention in any way. One can try to distinguish minor nuances of words/passages to their detriment. I would hope I am not guilty of such.

It is plain to see that there can be no further objective discussion between us on this text. I will leave off this discussion by making this one last contextual insight to an objective understanding to this text.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 must be intepreted in light of verse 4 where Paul suggests that it is possible to know ones election of God. It is in light of that thought that Paul makes a contrast between the negative "came NOT in word only" and the postive "but in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" as evidence of their election of God.

I wish you well.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: I agree, but is that active inclination toward evil something they can help change? Isn't that like telling a person who hates you and loves it so, that they can be saved from that condition if they will simply be willing not to love it so? Isn't that an oxymoron?

HP: Your statement might well be an oxymoron, but is not what I would advise anyone. I cannot tell you how inclinations changes but I know they can. In some ways some inclinations may never change but with the help proffered by the Holy Spirit we can triumph over the strongest of inclinations. Inclinations are not sin in and of themselves. They serve as temptations to sin. To be tempted is human but to yield to temptation is sin.

The point is not to be free from all inclinations. We still live in the flesh and saved or not saved we can all have inclinations to evil and selfishness. Our duty is NOT to eliminate inclinations directly, but rather to rise above the inclinations via the help of the Holy Spirit and to form our intents in line with obedience and benevolence regardless of the motivations from the flesh, the world, or the enemy of our souls to do otherwise.


Inclinations take on varies forms. Some are completely involuntary, due to the nature of our flesh and its weaknesses, some are instincts given to us by God for survival etc. Some we have coddled and fueled by selfish repetition, and some are from Satan and the world that simply catch us off guard inciting inclinations that otherwise might not be active. We cannot cut our selves off for the flesh in this world, but we can learn to cease from fueling those selfish inclinations, and learn not to feed those inclinations from the world or our flesh. Scripture tells us to flee fornication, youthful lusts, resist the devil and he will flee. It tells us to seek after good things, righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience meekness. It admonishes us to fight the good fight of faith and to lay hold of eternal life. We are to make our calling and election certain, and IF we do theses things we shall never fall. This is the direction I would council myself and others to take to bring about clear change in our character and ability to overcome temptation and selfish inclinations. Seek God with all our heart to strengthen us in the inner man to learn to overcome the wiles of the enemies of our soul, including but not limited to our own flesh.

Yes, with the help of God we can effect real change, and yes our wills are directly involved. We can receive all the help we so desire if we will but yield our wills in complete submission to His. That is the journey I am on and with the Lord's help am going to make heaven my eternal home.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: 1 Thessalonians 1:5 must be intepreted in light of verse 4 where Paul suggests that it is possible to know ones election of God. It is in light of that thought that Paul makes a contrast between the negative "came NOT in word only" and the postive "but in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance" as evidence of their election of God.

HP: Well and good. I will leave you with this one thought on the subject. Regardless of the assurance we once have received, we still are commanded to make our calling and election certain subsequent to first receiving such an assurance or demonstration of power. If ones life is not currently in agreement with the Word, and if ones conscience is evil, if ones works are not consistent with ones faith, such a one is in grave danger of deception.

My God be real in your heart and life.

 

[The Biblicist]

Inclinations are not sin in and of themselves. They serve as temptations to sin. To be tempted is human but to yield to temptation is sin.

Either I have failed to make myself clear or you have misundestood what I meant by "inclination." I am speaking of the bent of the human nature as a whole which is opposed to God and the things of God (Rom. 8:7). That very bent (rebellion) is sin and what makes a human being a sinner BY NATURE. Man sins because he is a sinner by nature. He is simply acting out what he IS by nature. He does not sin in order to become a sinner but he is born with that bent from his mother's womb.

However, I sense that this is a futile conversation so I will leave off here and I assure that God is very real both in my heart and in my life.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist, Boy are you leaving after opening a keg of worms.:smilewinkgrin:

I liked the part about Christ being real in your heart and life!:thumbs:

 

[targus]

No, one is not saved by the "readings" of the RCC.

I did not ask you about the "readings" of the RCC. I asked you if one can be saved by reading the bible.

It is through the power of the preaching of the gospel. That is what the Bible itself teaches.

You seem to be saying that the gospel is not contained in the bible.

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. (Acts 8:31)
--Then Philip preached unto him Jesus.

Interesting. I believe that Catholics use this as an arguement for the need for the authoritity for the Pope to guide the church.

Who guides DHK in his preaching?

The bible? Then why wouldn't the bible guide the unsaved reader of the bible?

The Holy Spirit? Then why wouldn't the Holy Spirit guide the unsaved reader of the bible?

I think that you are giving yourself too much credit if you think that it is you and your preaching that saves others instead of the Word found in the bible.

 

[Matt Black]

What if an infidel dropped a simple tract in the mud that had nothing but Scripture in it, to be picked up and read by another? Is it possible that God could use the truth of Scripture to save the reader?

My answer would be 'yes', but it would come with a heavy doctrinal caveat: you're potentially describing something akin to the 'cargo cult' scenario, in that the said Scriptures would be introduced without being properly contextualised through sound teaching/ preaching. (IIRC, Robert Heinlein posited a sci-fi version of this in one of the short stories in The Menace from Earth). As a Proper Anglican, I believe that "The Holy Scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation" (from the 39 Articles) but not all that is necessary for sound doctrine.

 

[Matt Black]

If salvation comes from grace through faith, what is the purpose of the mass? What is the doctrine of transubstantiation? Do I have to have faith in those things to go to heaven?

I'm not TS or indeed Catholic but will take a stab at answering this for you from what I hope is a Catholic perspective. Having been raised Catholic myself, I think the Catholic answer to you would be in the form of questions thrown right back at you eg: "if salvation comes from grace through faith, what is the point of reading the Bible? Or of praying?" etc. I have often heard evangelicals describe prayer as the spiritual equivalent of breathing and the study of Scripture as being the spiritual equivalent of eating; that bears a striking similarity to how I have heard the Mass and in particular Communion described by Catholics.

 

[DHK]

Well look at that Matt. You carried this thread to 32 pages.
We have to close it now.