Heavenly Pilgrim
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DHK, are you saying God cannot quicken His written Word to the heart and mind of a reader, and lead such a one to Himself without a preacher?
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Does The RCC Teach true Gospel/Jesus?
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But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:23)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
I am agreeing with what the Bible says. It is my final authority.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
So DHK, you seem to be saying that God cannot speak to the heart of man via Scripture to salvation of ones soul. I am not trying to misrepresent your interpetation of Scripture. I am just trying to get at the heart of your beleif. Am I correct in my assumption or not?
DHK. Something else here in your quote that i cannot understand about you staunch advocates of solar Scriptura and that is saying that the bi ble is final authority , when without any doubt the Bible itself declares that it is the 'church' that is the final answer , Matt. 18: 17-18, and 1 Tim:3-15.... church is final authority.What gives with your contradiction of Holy Scripture ?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
For the record, I as well believe in Scripture.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Without a doubt you have misinterpreted Scripture. What gives with that?
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:17-18)
--The topic here is church discipline, something we do at a church business meeting. Read the entire passage.
First you go to the person that has offended.
Then take two or three persons, and hopefully he will make things right (or repent).
If not (vs.17) "tell it to the church." Then the church will take action. Read about the historical background to see what Jesus is talking about.
Sola scriptura is the right to study and find out what these passages mean instead of blindly accepting the RCC's interpretation of them.
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:14-15)
--This verse gives the utmost importance to the Word of God.
The local church at Ephesus, where Timothy was the pastor, was the pillar and ground of the truth. This is only applicable to local churches. Denominationalism is not taught in the Bible.
The Bible is the ground of the Church. Everything that is taught is based on the Bible, not on Oral Tradition, not on any other authority, but the Bible alone. The Word of God is the ground of the church.
The church is the pillar of truth--always upholding the word of God that all may hear, see, the Word of God going forth. It is a pillar for the truth--the Bible alone.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If one suggests from this verse that because Philip stated that he did not understand what he was reading without a man being his teacher, and then universally believes that because one man could not it could be assumed a universal principle that no one could understand, they are guilty of drawing false conclusions from the Scriptures.
When we try to make statements made specifically by one man concerning his own ability or inability apply universally to all men, we are heading for theological shipwreck. What if I took this passage of David and tried to make it a universal principle concerning all men??? 2Sa 22:21 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Is there a Gideon in the house?:godisgood:
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
For the most part, I agree. However, when you add to that I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" then you can rightfully make the application universal.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Pastor Bob, but does not the Holy Spirit quicken His Word as it is read? Even a lost man has some light revealed to them for without some enlightenment they could not even 'reject' the truth could they? Even the heathen, apart from the Word have some enlightenment via their conscience, nature, etc, which is nothing other than the Spirt of God revealing to them truth even if in small measure, is it not?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Here might be another question. Does a minister of the gospel fully expect the Holy Spirit to enlighten the heart and mind of the listener when they read from God's Word? Are the Scriptures, in and of themselves, mighty and powerful, sharper than a double edged sword in revealing truth to the soul of man? Could a man be convicted and converted by simply hearing (or reading) and acting upon the Word of God and his Spirit attesting to his Word alone? Does even that possibility exist?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
What if an infidel dropped a simple tract in the mud that had nothing but Scripture in it, to be picked up and read by another? Is it possible that God could use the truth of Scripture to save the reader? If a preacher is absolutely necessary, may I ask what preacher is it? Could a Catholic priest be used by God to the salvation of a hungry soul? I would certainly think so. If not I would have to count out a whole lot of protestant ministers as well. That by no means suggests I am suggesting one go to a Catholic Church to find the truth, neither would I suggest they go to many others, as the truth seem to be lying in the streets to a large degree in relationship to what is so often taught.
Heavenly Pilgrim,
Does the scripture limit the messanger of the gospel to just humans or is there indications that heavenly messangers (angels) can somehow preach the gospel to men (Gal. 1:8 "we, or an angel from heaven" - Rev. 14:6 "preach the everlasting gospel").
Is the power of salvation in the Word apart from the Holy Spirit or is salvation the consequence of the gospel coming more than "in word only" but additionally "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:4-5)?
Is the qualifications found in the messanger of the gospel or in the Holy Spirit empowering the gospel?
I find no basis for the salvation of any human apart from some kind of messanger sharing the gospel. If people who did not hear the gospel will be saved then by all means let us keep this thing a secret so that all can be saved.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Pastor Bob, just one more thought on this passage. Does it not beg the question as to why the natural man receiveth not the things of God and why is he not using spiritual discernment to understand? Could it be a total unwillingness to yield to the light God has given him? Could it not be due to his selfish refusal to come to the light? I would certainly believe that to be the case in multitudes of cases at the very least.
"Cannot" does not always present an impossibility, but rather a total unwillingness. For instance, I 'cannot' do the things I used to do before my conversion. I know full well I 'could' if i so desired, but I also know if I did those things I could not remain in the faith with a right relationship with God. It can rightfully be said I am 'totally unwilling' (I cannot) do some things. Make sense?
The key to understanding this verse IMHO is that to be devoid of spiritual understanding is not to be devoid of spiritual truth. I see the natural man as not one God has not been enlightened by spiritual truth at all, but rather one that has learned to live "AS IF THOUGH" they have no other light. Again it is unwillingness to follow the light they have been given rather than a complete void of spiritual truth. In such a state it could be rightfully stated "neither can he" in the passage you quoted.
Romans is clear. No one, not even the heathen are totally devoid of some spiritual truth. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual...
"Cannot" does not always present an impossibility, but rather a total unwillingness. For instance, I 'cannot' do the things I used to do before my conversion. I know full well I 'could' if i so desired, but I also know if I did those things I could not remain in the faith with a right relationship with God. It can rightfully be said I am 'totally unwilling' (I cannot) do some things. Make sense?
The key to understanding this verse IMHO is that to be devoid of spiritual understanding is not to be devoid of spiritual truth. I see the natural man as not one God has not been enlightened by spiritual truth at all, but rather one that has learned to live "AS IF THOUGH" they have no other light. Again it is unwillingness to follow the light they have been given rather than a complete void of spiritual truth. In such a state it could be rightfully stated "neither can he" in the passage you quoted.
Romans is clear. No one, not even the heathen are totally devoid of some spiritual truth. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual...
Could the condition of "unwillingness" be the actual state/nature of all fallen mankind? Hence, they cannot because they will not and they will not because they "love darkness' and "hate the light"? Isn't this the real "heart" of the problem with all lost men (Ezek. 36:26)?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I would have to say according to Scripture the chosen method of spreading the gospel is indeed by the preaching by man the Word of God. With that said, God is a sovereign God and will allow Him room in my theology to do as He alone sees fit. I would say that if one did receive the gospel by a messenger not of this race it would be an exception like in some manner as the conversion of the Apostle Paul. God is certainly able to do as He sees fit.
The Word of God is never devoid of the Spirit of God. "My Word will not return to me void." Whatever the means used, if one is saved it is via the empowement of the Holy Spirit as the Word is set forth.
Do you believe dying infants and those possessing limited mental abilities from childhood are saved or lost? If saved, who is the messenger of the gospel to them or is the gospel even applicable to them?
Do you believe the word of God came back void "in those who perish" in 2 Cor. 2:15? Do you believe the word came to those "who perish" in 2 Cor. 2:15 not merely in "word only" "but also in power and in the holy Spirit and in much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:5)?
In 1 Thessalonians 1:5 why is there a contrast between the negative phrase "came NOT in word only" and the positive phrase of contrast "BUT ALSO [alla kai] in power and in the Holy Spirit" if the Word always comes in that way?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I believe they are neither saved nor unsaved. They are not even moral agents. I do believe that all such as you mentioned will be in heaven with the Lord, but I do not know or understand in what capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1754207#post1754207
The Word of God is never devoid of the Spirit of God. "My Word will not return to me void." Whatever the means used, if one is saved it is via the empowement of the Holy Spirit as the Word is set forth.
HP: It will not return to Him void. It will stand for eternity justifying God for His actions concerning those that turned a deaf ear and an unwilling unyieiding heart. They heard the truth, even though in some measure, yet they would not obey.
HP: It simply magnifies the power that is associated with God's Word on hearers with willing hearts and minds. What can fall as dead letter upon a heart bent on selfishness, falls as a powerful life changing force on those with a heart of repentance and a will set on obedience towards God's commands.
I agree
Did the gospel come to them "in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance"! Is Paul describing how it "came" or how it was received? Does the Greek have a term for "received" if that was what he wanted to convey?
Did Paul say the gospel came in TRUTH or did he say it came "not in word only BUT ALSO (in addition to that) in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance"???
Again, if Paul was describing how it was RECEIVED instead of how it "came" was there a word for "received" he could have used?
Again, what is the value of saying "word only" if the Gospel NEVER comes in "word only" but ALWAYS comes "in power and in the Spirit"??????
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If we were free to change the words of Scripture to mean "received" instead of "came" and "magnifies the power" instead of "in power" could we not then change any scripture to fit our own chosen soteriology?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Very succinctly stated. They cannot, just as you say, because they will not. Fallen mankind is in a state of willing disobedience to known commandments of God. They love selfishness. They are not mere lumps on a log floating downstream due to some inherited nature, but rather are willing rebels against God and His laws.
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