Does the Roman Catholic Church teach Justification by Faith Alone?

[Cathode]

We are talking past each other. You are constantly conflating justification with sanctification. Your story about yourself is great, but you did not treat that child in order to be saved, but because, presumably, you are saved. Before someone is saved, his good deeds are of no avail to him.

Our purpose is not to be saved, our purpose is to Love.

It’s not about a Faith just believed it is about a Faith Loved. Do you understand?

When you here this you are saved.

“Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat”

Does the King say, when you gave something to eat to the least of these, it was filthy rags. No, He says it was a love showed to Him personally.

There are many out there with faith enough to call Jesus their Lord.
Lord, Lord they say.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

So these are second tier faith holders, they weren’t just intellectual assent, these trusted in Jesus power and obtained miracles and wonders, as does anyone’s confidence in Jesus will obtain miracles.

But these were not worked through Love.

Salvation is a process, it takes a season to grow the fruit that justifies the trees existence, it is at seasons end that tree is Judged and saved or burned.

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognise them.”

As we bear good fruit throughout life we are being saved, the harvest is accounted at the end of the season.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank you for this excellent post that says it like it is

So you believe that Paul the Apostle of Christ was a confusing individual and so only those who comprehend him elevated them from the masses to become “Protestants” and Protestants don’t reflect the Children of God…only Catholics thru Peters leadership understand Christ….is that’s what you are saying Craig?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

“Then Jesus, moved with compassion” moved with Love, it is right before your eyes and you do not see.

I remember years ago being totally run down from work in exploration, but it was my turn that morning to be a at the bush clinic to help out. I was dreading what I would find, and I was kind of praying that it would be an easier day. Months in the jungle and hard work had made me very down, mentally and physically.

I went anyway and the first patient I saw was a woman who had been walking for days through the jungle to get there. She was holding a bundle of rags which she placed on the table. As I opened up bundle I saw a little toddler boy covered head to foot in scabies and sores, it was very bad, the last thing I wanted to see in my state.
But as I sat him up, he was looking down, looking ashamed of himself and his condition, very self aware. When I raised his chin and looked into his eyes, it was like both our two miseries met, and I had a great love filled me from the heart like fire with great power. Love is the Holy Presence of the Lord in the both of us.
Do you think he got the greatest care and help after that?

“ Then Jesus, moved with compassion”

I know what that is.

“What you did for least of these, you did for me”

These works of Love are not rags, they are loving service to Jesus Himself by Grace.

It’s not just believing intellectually from the head, it is Love from the Heart.

“ This people honours me with their lips, yet their hearts are far from me “

Jesus is interested in Hearts.

Three things remain, Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love.

Is that what you told the illegials when your church facilitated these peoples breaking our immigration laws to flood our country and overwhelm us? Do you think Trump and Tom Holman will stand for that Catholic nonsense?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You still don't get it. 'For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED [Perfect Tense] through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them' This seems perfectly clear. We are saved, not by good works, but for good works. If, on the Day of Judgment, when the books are opened, there are no good works, it begs the question as to whether we were saved at all; hence the verses you quoted above. But there is no question of losing salvation.

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

"I never knew you!" I didn't know you once and then changed My mind.
I don't think there's any purpose in carrying on with this discussion. We are talking past each other. Thank you for answering my question so clearly.

 

[JesusFan]

Yep. That's why I said they play a shell game. You can read where they consider us as Baptists "lesser brothers" and will say they accept our baptism as valid. But if you examine it further it seems that they mean lesser brothers that haven't come around to the Roman system yet. Anyone who consciously and knowingly believes in salvation by faith and fails to recognize the sacramental system is lost. They can't repudiate Trent or it would mean they were wrong but they dance around it and sort of deemphasize it when it suits them.

That's not to say that individual Roman Catholics do not fully accept you as a fellow believer. I think some of them are real believers too. I enjoy sites like First Things while realizing the issues that are very real.

To Rome, worst region in Hell would be filled of those who were raised and confirmed catholic, and denied it and became a Baptist, as those who know their true doctrines and reject are all hell bound, and yet they extend saving grace to those who are islamic or jewish, if faithful toeir own religions and ignorant of what Rome officaly teaches and holds with

 

[JesusFan]

“Then Jesus, moved with compassion” moved with Love, it is right before your eyes and you do not see.

I remember years ago being totally run down from work in exploration, but it was my turn that morning to be a at the bush clinic to help out. I was dreading what I would find, and I was kind of praying that it would be an easier day. Months in the jungle and hard work had made me very down, mentally and physically.

I went anyway and the first patient I saw was a woman who had been walking for days through the jungle to get there. She was holding a bundle of rags which she placed on the table. As I opened up bundle I saw a little toddler boy covered head to foot in scabies and sores, it was very bad, the last thing I wanted to see in my state.
But as I sat him up, he was looking down, looking ashamed of himself and his condition, very self aware. When I raised his chin and looked into his eyes, it was like both our two miseries met, and I had a great love filled me from the heart like fire with great power. Love is the Holy Presence of the Lord in the both of us.
Do you think he got the greatest care and help after that?

“ Then Jesus, moved with compassion”

I know what that is.

“What you did for least of these, you did for me”

These works of Love are not rags, they are loving service to Jesus Himself by Grace.

It’s not just believing intellectually from the head, it is Love from the Heart.

“ This people honours me with their lips, yet their hearts are far from me “

Jesus is interested in Hearts.

Three things remain, Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love.

Rome loves the "James Justification". as they mistakenly see Paul and James in conflict, but paul address how we get right and justified before Holy God, while Jam,es addresses how that is to be worked out once saved into our lives

 

[JesusFan]

Thank you for this excellent post that says it like it is

So you would agree with Him that papacy and Trent trumps and is superior to the inspired books of the Apostle Paul then?

 

[JesusFan]

We are talking past each other. You are constantly conflating justification with sanctification. Your story about yourself is great, but you did not treat that child in order to be saved, but because, presumably, you are saved. Before someone is saved, his good deeds are of no avail to him. 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8). There are doctors in Medecins sans Frontieres who are atheists or agnostics, who do wonderful work in field hospitals all over the world, and it would be very churlish to say that they have no love for the people they treat, but It cuts no ice with God, because whatever they do is mired by sin.
First these people must be justified - declared righteous by God - on the basis of faith alone. Acts 13:39. "...And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.' Romans 3:28. 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justifiedby faith apart from the deeds of the law.' But then, having been justified, the Holy Spirit will lead us to do the acts of love of which you speak, But they cannot justify us. 'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness' (Romans 4:3-5). Yes, God justifies the ungodly! Alleluia! Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!

Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched,
Weak and wounded, sick and sore;
Jesus ready stands to save you,
Full of pity joined with power.
He is able,
He is willing; doubt no more!

Let not conscience make you linger,
Nor of fitness fondly dream.
All the fitness He requireth
Is to feel you need of Him.
This He gives you;
'Tis the Spirit's rising beam!

Come, ye weary, heavy-laden
Bruised and broken by the Fall.
If you tarry till you're better,
You will never come at all!
Not the righteous -
Sinners Jesus came to call.
Joseph Hart (1712-68)

Offical doctrine of tremt/Rome regarding salvations reminds me of the time a friend of mine stated that he saw a Lutheran Youth Pastor teaching the class, and asked them by what basis as children were saved, and when kids answered by faith in jesus, pastor kept saying back"" Yes and also by water baptism" Adding goods works to Grace mof Hod, just as Rome does also

 

[Cathode]

Is that what you told the illegials when your church facilitated these peoples breaking our immigration laws to flood our country and overwhelm us?

Yeah, it was me, I told them, sorry mate. At lunch at Castel Gandolfo I even told Pope Francis to order that the Church help assist millions of illegals into the US. I remember now cos the fresh bread rolls and the soup was amazing as we talked about it.

Do you think Trump and Tom Holman will stand for that Catholic nonsense?

Certainly not, Tom Holman is a good Catholic.

 

[Cathode]

You still don't get it. 'For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED [Perfect Tense] through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them' This seems perfectly clear. We are saved, not by good works, but for good works. If, on the Day of Judgment, when the books are opened, there are no good works, it begs the question as to whether we were saved at all; hence the verses you quoted above. But there is no question of losing salvation.

"I never knew you!" I didn't know you once and then changed My mind.
I don't think there's any purpose in carrying on with this discussion. We are talking past each other. Thank you for answering my question so clearly.

You should listen to Craigbythesea, I may only be a gardener, but I can appreciate a bright and erudite mind when I see one.

“Many Baptists have in their DNA a very strong disrespect for the Roman Catholic Church—indeed, such a strong disrespect that their minds automatically shut out the truth so that they can continue in their false beliefs on that issue. I find precisely the same kind of thing in Jehovah’s Witnesses. They have in their DNA a very strong disbelief in the deity of Christ—indeed, such a strong disbelief that their minds automatically shut out the truth so that they can continue in their false beliefs on that issue. I find this to be an extremely serious matter because it draws into question the nature of their faith—is their faith genuine, or is it an automatic response to something in their DNA?”

Look at what Trent actually condemned and you will see that it was these types of faith that I canvassed in my replies.

Don’t argue with people about it, but be a true and dispassionate scholar seeking have a complete grasp of both sides.

It pays to be totally objective, take a couple of years and really try to understand it. It is very important, it is a salvation issue after all.

Thanks for including me in the discussion.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Our heart is where Jesus dwells, spend much time there.

“ The Kingdom of God is within you “



Don’t you understand that faith is not just a “personal relationship” with Jesus, it is Incarnating Jesus within us.
Our lives imitate His.

“It is no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me “

That little kid said everything with his eyes “ If you are willing, you can make me clean “.
The same Love that goes out and saves, saves us, that Love is Jesus.

When we are weak, He is strong.

If our Faith does not manifest Love, it does not manifest Jesus, it is not the saving Faith.

“if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”

Human works are nothing, but Good works are God works by Grace, by Jesus acting through us in Love.

“By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.”

“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without me.”

The evidence of Jesus in our lives is the evidence of Love in our lives.

The fruit is the Love, just as the tree is judged by its fruit, we are judged by our Love.

By this the sheep and goats are separated.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Thank you for this true, honest, and accurate post that clearly distinguishes genuine, saving faith from an empty cardboard box with a label reading, “faith.”

 

[Cathode]

Thank you for this true, honest, and accurate post that clearly distinguishes genuine, saving faith from an empty cardboard box with a label reading, “faith.”

Thanks mate, it seems to be a difficult thing get across to some people, I don’t know how many other ways I can try to explain it.

Your idea of a prejudice baked into the DNA has legs I think. People have to want to understand before they will understand.

Are you theologically trained?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yeah, it was me, I told them, sorry mate. At lunch at Castel Gandolfo I even told Pope Francis to order that the Church help assist millions of illegals into the US. I remember now cos the fresh bread rolls and the soup was amazing as we talked about it.



Certainly not, Tom Holman is a good Catholic.

They must take away the RCC’s tax free status and start aggressively arresting those responsible and imprisoning these people.

 

[JesusFan]

Thank you for this true, honest, and accurate post that clearly distinguishes genuine, saving faith from an empty cardboard box with a label reading, “faith.”

So when Jesus stated all that the father requires is to trust in Jesus, to have faith in Him as Savior and Lord ,not enough?

 

[JesusFan]

Thanks mate, it seems to be a difficult thing get across to some people, I don’t know how many other ways I can try to explain it.

Your idea of a prejudice baked into the DNA has legs I think. People have to want to understand before they will understand.

Are you theologically trained?

If you have to add anything to the Cross of Christ, then you are into Judaizing the Gospel, and as paul stated, let them be "accursed"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you have to add anything to the Cross of Christ, then you are into Judaizing the Gospel, and as paul stated, let them be "accursed"

If you have to add anything to the Cross of Christ, then you are into Judaizing the Gospel, and as paul stated, let them be "accursed"

They are.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Our heart is where Jesus dwells, spend much time there.

“ The Kingdom of God is within you “



Don’t you understand that faith is not just a “personal relationship” with Jesus, it is Incarnating Jesus within us.
Our lives imitate His.

“It is no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in me “

That little kid said everything with his eyes “ If you are willing, you can make me clean “.
The same Love that goes out and saves, saves us, that Love is Jesus.

When we are weak, He is strong.

If our Faith does not manifest Love, it does not manifest Jesus, it is not the saving Faith.

“if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”

Human works are nothing, but Good works are God works by Grace, by Jesus acting through us in Love.

“By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.”

“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without me.”

The evidence of Jesus in our lives is the evidence of Love in our lives.

The fruit is the Love, just as the tree is judged by its fruit, we are judged by our Love.

By this the sheep and goats are separated.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Your posts bless and enrich my life!

 

[JesusFan]

They are.

Rome officially apostized at Council of Trent, where they made very clear to deny Pauline Justification

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rome officially apostized at Council of Trent, where they made very clear to deny Pauline Justification

I know.

 

[Walter]

I was raised in a Baptist church where 'easy believism' had the pastor's son 'walking the aisle' four different times from the time he was seven to eighteen. Each time the pastor explained that he had 'made a decision for Christ in the past, but just didn't really mean it'. Each time resulted in another baptism.
As Cathode said before, simply giving intellectual assent doesn't do it.

Unfortunately, 'easy believism' is preached in many fundamentalist churches still today.