Does the will of man remain "free" after salvation?

[slave 4 Christ]

Quote from Cypress

since free will is what we have, it is part and parcel of having faith.

Please prove man has "free" will. BTW....not will, but "free" will

It is a surrender of independence in the use of the free will and the believer is now enabled to use it in a manner pleasing to God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as part of the body of Christ.

What is the cause of the "surrender of independence"? What causes one person to surrender and another not? Is there something in one that the other does not posess?

If man's will is actually free to believe in God, then why must free will be further enabled, after believing, to "please" God?

Reply:No

No is indeed an answer, but please prove why it is the right answer. Thanks

Reply: Free will was given to man by God in love.....giving it back is mans response to God's love. It fits rather well imo in this light.

This view fits if man responds correctly, but what of those who do not?

If free will can be used to reject God, then how can this be love?

Why would God give man such a dangerous power, that could be used to lead man unto everlasting destruction?

This view would have God saying, if man does not use his free will to love me I will utterly, everlastingly pour my wrath out upon him.
How can this be love?

 

[quantumfaith]

Please prove man has "free" will. BTW....not will, but "free" will



What is the cause of the "surrender of independence"? What causes one person to surrender and another not? Is there something in one that the other does not posess?

If man's will is actually free to believe in God, then why must free will be further enabled, after believing, to "please" God?




No is indeed an answer, but please prove why it is the right answer. Thanks




This view fits if man responds correctly, but what of those who do not?

If free will can be used to reject God, then how can this be love?

Why would God give man such a dangerous power, that could be used to lead man unto everlasting destruction?

This view would have God saying, if man does not use his free will to love me I will utterly, everlastingly pour my wrath out upon him.
How can this be love?

slave4christ,

How is this any "worse" the reformed view of election, God by grace "electing" some and by default, not electing the others? My use of "worse" is not meant to be disrespectful, just the only word I could wiggle out of my brain at the moment.

 

[Cypress]

Slave,
sorry, but not biting on this one.....I can no more prove man has free will than you can disprove it.

 

[Luke2427]

Please prove man has "free" will. BTW....not will, but "free" will



What is the cause of the "surrender of independence"? What causes one person to surrender and another not? Is there something in one that the other does not posess?

If man's will is actually free to believe in God, then why must free will be further enabled, after believing, to "please" God?




No is indeed an answer, but please prove why it is the right answer. Thanks




This view fits if man responds correctly, but what of those who do not?

If free will can be used to reject God, then how can this be love?

Why would God give man such a dangerous power, that could be used to lead man unto everlasting destruction?

This view would have God saying, if man does not use his free will to love me I will utterly, everlastingly pour my wrath out upon him.
How can this be love?

Once again I am thoroughly impressed by these solid arguments.

Keep up the good work!

 

[Luke2427]

Slave,
sorry, but not biting on this one.....I can no more prove man has free will than you can disprove it.

Respectfully, you NEED to be able to prove it because it is the dead level CORNERSTONE of all non-reformed theologies.

To admit that you cannot prove it is to admit that your whole system is not supportable.

God bless!

 

[slave 4 Christ]

[/B]

slave4christ,

How is this any "worse" the reformed view of election, God by grace "electing" some and by default, not electing the others? My use of "worse" is not meant to be disrespectful, just the only word I could wiggle out of my brain at the moment.

Quantum,
This is a fair question. However the answer, on the surface, does not seem fair.

God has in the counsel of His own will chosen a group of people, to be His people.
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (I Peter 2:9,10)

When did He choose these people? ....before the foundation of the world
For what reason did He choose these people? ...according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His Glorious Grace...

4...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,...(Eph. 1:4-7)

It is imperative we understand that God, and God alone, makes the choice unto whom He gives His grace.

The question now arises, why did he choose some and not others?

But this is not the most important question.

The most important question is why did He choose anyone?
Who of all mankind deserves the marvelous Grace of God?
Who could rise from their wicked state and demand God save them?

This question of fairness arises in Paul's mind in Romans 9:14, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!"

Then why is there no injustice in God for choosing whom He will?
Answer: It is HIS mercy, and He can bestow it where and when He chooses.

15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Roms. 9:15:17)

According to HIS own revelation of Himself, God is supremely, solely, and sovereignly qualified to choose whom He will.
18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The difference is God, who is infinitely wiser than man, makes the choice.

Why? This is the question man asks. Then he attempts to answer the question with "free" will. This to absolve God of injustice and to understand God's decision. But the problem with free will is that it gives motive and merit where it does not belong.

God, who is rich in mercy, chose the elect out of darkness, out of utter depravity, out of a race that is His enemy. He bestowed Mercy upon those who deserved an everlasting perdition. I was one of this group.

Quantum, when I think of this fact I am immediately and swiftly brought low. My heart can hardly bear the thought of immeasurable love and unmerited favor bestowed upon one so absolutely undeserving.

This was the same conclusion Paul came to as he finished writing the greatest treatise about salvation ever written. The book of Romans chapters 1-11.

(Romans 11:33-36)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

 

[quantumfaith]

Slave,
sorry, but not biting on this one.....I can no more prove man has free will than you can disprove it.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,
This is a fair question. However the answer, on the surface, does not seem fair.

God has in the counsel of His own will chosen a group of people, to be His people.
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (I Peter 2:9,10)

When did He choose these people? ....before the foundation of the world
For what reason did He choose these people? ...according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His Glorious Grace...

4...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,...(Eph. 1:4-7)

It is imperative we understand that God, and God alone, makes the choice unto whom He gives His grace.

The question now arises, why did he choose some and not others?

But this is not the most important question.

The most important question is why did He choose anyone?
Who of all mankind deserves the marvelous Grace of God?
Who could rise from their wicked state and demand God save them?

This question of fairness arises in Paul's mind in Romans 9:14, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!"

Then why is there no injustice in God for choosing whom He will?
Answer: It is HIS mercy, and He can bestow it where and when He chooses.

15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Roms. 9:15:17)

According to HIS own revelation of Himself, God is supremely, solely, and sovereignly qualified to choose whom He will.
18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The difference is God, who is infinitely wiser than man, makes the choice.

Why? This is the question man asks. Then he attempts to answer the question with "free" will. This to absolve God of injustice and to understand God's decision. But the problem with free will is that it gives motive and merit where it does not belong.

God, who is rich in mercy, chose the elect out of darkness, out of utter depravity, out of a race that is His enemy. He bestowed Mercy upon those who deserved an everlasting perdition. I was one of this group.

Quantum, when I think of this fact I am immediately and swiftly brought low. My heart can hardly bear the thought of immeasurable love and unmerited favor bestowed upon one so absolutely undeserving.

This was the same conclusion Paul came to as he finished writing the greatest treatise about salvation ever written. The book of Romans chapters 1-11.

(Romans 11:33-36)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

1. I dont feel the need to "absolve" God of anything, that is your assertion of me. I categorically deny your position here.

I, as do all believers, know that God can do WHATEVER with WHOMEVER HE wishes.

I believe that the pages (entire record of scripture) teaches very clearly that God is Just (the ultmate), God is merciful, et al.

2. From scripture, God chose a man (Abram) who would become a nation. Why did he choose Abram? (Mind of God) But he credited Abram due to his faith and obedience.

The people who "sprang forth" from Abraham were first a national and ethnic group who were in all ways to "represent" God before the rest of creation. We know how that went awry with fallible human issues. We who are christians are also "offspring" of Abraham, not ethnically, but because we are members of the "chosen" by our faith in Christ.

God can and does CHOOSE certain people for certain roles in His redemptive history, those that are chosen Abraham, Moses David etc. This is the exception not the norm, from OUR perspective. God extends His grace to each and every sentient creature who has ever drawn breath on this planet (MHO)

 

[Cypress]

Respectfully, you NEED to be able to prove it because it is the dead level CORNERSTONE of all non-reformed theologies.

To admit that you cannot prove it is to admit that your whole system is not supportable.

God bless!

Luke,
I understand your point and am quite capable of making a reasonable defense in my opinion (and btw it is unsatisfactory in yours as has been seen in other threads), but freewill is not at issue in the OP and is assumed therein.

 

[GBC Pastor]

This view fits if man responds correctly, but what of those who do not?

Those who do not at least had opportunity. This gift of love was offered to them and they chose to reject it.

If free will can be used to reject God, then how can this be love?

It is love because they were given the chance. No one under a Non-Cal belief who is in Hell can blame anyone but themselves. I know Cal's argue for human responsibility in their system, but ultimately those in hell are there because God chose for them to be there. How can this be love?

Why would God give man such a dangerous power, that could be used to lead man unto everlasting destruction?

I don't see it as a "dangerous power" but as an opportunity.

This view would have God saying, if man does not use his free will to love me I will utterly, everlastingly pour my wrath out upon him.
How can this be love?

As opposed to God pouring out His wrath on those who had no free will to be anything other than what God preordained them to be? How can this be love?

 

[quantumfaith]

Those who do not at least had opportunity. This gift of love was offered to them and they chose to reject it.



It is love because they were given the chance. No one under a Non-Cal belief who is in Hell can blame anyone but themselves. I know Cal's argue for human responsibility in their system, but ultimately those in hell are there because God chose for them to be there. How can this be love?



I don't see it as a "dangerous power" but as an opportunity.



As opposed to God pouring out His wrath on those who had no free will to be anything other than what God preordained them to be? How can this be love?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[slave 4 Christ]

(MHO)

1. I dont feel the need to "absolve" God of anything, that is your assertion of me. I categorically deny your position here. I, as do all believers, know that God can do WHATEVER with WHOMEVER HE wishes. I believe that the pages (entire record of scripture) teaches very clearly that God is Just (the ultmate), God is merciful, et al.

The non-reformed argues "my God would not choose some for His family and leave others to perish." Why would he say this if he really believed God can do whatever with whomever He wishes?
Free will is taught from assumption. How so? One knows that God is just and merciful. But he "assumes" that God is neither if He chooses some, and by "default" rejects others. "Free" will is a product of assumptive reaction. This is why God gave His people Romans 9:16,20,21.
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.....20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

2. From scripture, God chose a man (Abram) who would become a nation. Why did he choose Abram? (Mind of God) But he credited Abram due to his faith and obedience.....We who are christians are also "offspring" of Abraham, not ethnically, but because we are members of the "chosen" by our faith in Christ.

Who is the cause of this choice? GOD is. God chose Abram, then effectually called Abram. This God did with no outside influence.

If faith and obedience are the grounds of God's choice and call, then Abram caused the choice.

This system says God foresaw Abram's faith and obedience, then God chose Abram.
If this is true then Abram is precedent in God's choice.
Now God, has no choice. He is bound by Abram's choice.

God can and does CHOOSE certain people for certain roles in His redemptive history, those that are chosen Abraham, Moses David etc. This is the exception not the norm, from OUR perspective.

Does God's choice of people for certain roles include only those who have a positive effect?
Did He not also "ordain" those who have a "so called" negative effect?
Consider what Jude said,
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ordained by God for what purpose? Answer: turning the grace....denying Jesus...
Not only does God ordain righteous men to serve HIS purpose in redemptive history, but also wicked men. This is a normative action for God.

This is the exception not the norm, from OUR perspective.

God tells us about His redemptive choice.

I Cor. 1:28-30
28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus,....

Ephs. 1:4,5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Phil. 1:6,29
6And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ....29For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,...

Titus 3:3-7
3For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

James 1:16-18
16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I Peter 1:1-3
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. Born Again to a Living Hope 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I Peter 2:9,10
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

God extends His grace to each and every sentient creature who has ever drawn breath on this planet

I concur. But there is a great eternal difference between grace to breathe, walk, etc. and grace given unto new life.
Everybody in Abram's village was breathing, ie. receiving grace, but only Abram heard the effectual call of God's grace. The proof of God's effectual call, Abram believed.

 

[SimpleMan]

I believe "free will" is something that is scripturally supported but just willingly ignored by people who don't have free will. Confusing huh. Well it's not supposed to be, but when people pick and choose, then that's when confusions sets in. I believe people don't like the fact that they will be held accountable for their actions,choices and decisions. So, it's easier to say "I have no free will", then I have no accountability. They say I'm chosen, I've been elected, and I've been regenerated. Why would you even need to go to church anymore? Why do you need to pray anymore? Why should you do anything for Christ? You've made it. The decision has been made. I've talked to several people who believe that they have been chosen and saved and can now do whatever they want because they don't believe in free will combined with that, they believe in eternal security. They live their lives like it's a big party because nothing they do or don't do will keep them out of Heaven. This is absolute nonsense to me. This type of behavior is a disgrace to Christ's ultimate sacrifice. Why do people get so upset that people believe in free will and that they can lose their salvation? When you are able to lose something that you really want to keep, then you'll fight harder to keep it. People who don't believe in free will must logically believe that their actions and choices are not their own anymore. I assume they won't be judged for any sins after their election. I take full responsiblity for my sins, shortcomings, and downfalls. By doing that, I have a fear that I need to repent because I've got a lot to lose. Why would someone who is elect need to repent? Your spot is already saved. Go live anyway you want. To me, this is so demeaning to Christs sacrifice. Go ahead and tell me I'm unlearned and ueducated, since that seems to be the usual response. I take that as a compliment. I'm in good company. Jesus himself was considered unlearned.
Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled;and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
1 Cor. 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Cor. 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God
1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1 Cor 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
I look to God for my help and guidance in making the right decisions. He loves me, teaches me, and helps me. I make the choice to love him back, to listen to his instruction, and to take his help.
( In the end, these last 3 scriptures pretty much sums up my beliefs. That's enough for me)
God Bless and Love to All even if you don't agree with me.

 

[quantumfaith]

The non-reformed argues "my God would not choose some for His family and leave others to perish." Why would he say this if he really believed God can do whatever with whomever He wishes?
Free will is taught from assumption. How so? One knows that God is just and merciful. But he "assumes" that God is neither if He chooses some, and by "default" rejects others. "Free" will is a product of assumptive reaction. This is why God gave His people Romans 9:16,20,21.
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.....20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?



Who is the cause of this choice? GOD is. God chose Abram, then effectually called Abram. This God did with no outside influence.

If faith and obedience are the grounds of God's choice and call, then Abram caused the choice.

This system says God foresaw Abram's faith and obedience, then God chose Abram.
If this is true then Abram is precedent in God's choice.
Now God, has no choice. He is bound by Abram's choice.




Does God's choice of people for certain roles include only those who have a positive effect?
Did He not also "ordain" those who have a "so called" negative effect?
Consider what Jude said,
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ordained by God for what purpose? Answer: turning the grace....denying Jesus...
Not only does God ordain righteous men to serve HIS purpose in redemptive history, but also wicked men. This is a normative action for God.



God tells us about His redemptive choice.

I Cor. 1:28-30
28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus,....

Ephs. 1:4,5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Phil. 1:6,29
6And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ....29For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,...

Titus 3:3-7
3For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

James 1:16-18
16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I Peter 1:1-3
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. Born Again to a Living Hope 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

I Peter 2:9,10
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.



I concur. But there is a great eternal difference between grace to breathe, walk, etc. and grace given unto new life.
Everybody in Abram's village was breathing, ie. receiving grace, but only Abram heard the effectual call of God's grace. The proof of God's effectual call, Abram believed.

The fact that God chose one man Abram to accomplish a part of His redemptive act, in no way proves this "alleged" "effectual" call. God purposed and called Abram out to be the father of a nation which was to have a covenant with God and a missional responsibility to the rest of the world. A responsibility to demonstrate YHWH to the world that they may also know him.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Follow this out to it's logical end and you ahve Charles Stanley's eternal security.

Salvation comes by one instantaneous burst of faith and faith is not required thereafter. One can renounce his faith in Christ and become a Muslim and still go to heaven.

Stanley doesnt say that, does he?

 

[Winman]

Stanley doesnt say that, does he?

Let me ask Luke, were you conceived in your mother's womb in one instantaneous moment? Or are you being conceived continuously?

I don't usually compare the spiritual to the physical, but it was Jesus himself that made this comparison.

 

[Luke2427]

Let me ask Luke, were you conceived in your mother's womb in one instantaneous moment? Or are you being conceived continuously?

I don't usually compare the spiritual to the physical, but it was Jesus himself that made this comparison.

I was born in a matter of moments.

So much so that the doctor declared the time of my birth by up to the very minute of it. 8:37 am.

My conception and growth in my mother's womb was a lengthy process.