Does this indicate a choice?

[quantumfaith]

I was talking to you, Luke, not anyone else. I was addressing you.
Thus, more accurately my remarks were along this line:

Your perception of God makes him out to be cruel and vindictive--a monster. You have a religion wherein it is your God's will that abortion, murder, adultery, and even the transgression of all of his Ten Commandments are His very will. If a man commit murder then that is the will of God. That is not Biblical doctrine. I will say this again. That is the belief of Islam. It is fatalism, one of their basic tenets. I am sorry that you believe that way. But it is not Biblical doctrine.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[The Archangel]

If I may, please allow me an attempt to return civility and understanding on this issue.

Luke seems to be saying "God causes evil." I think this is where the whole confusion comes into play.

I don't think Luke is saying that God is the direct cause of things like murder, abortion, etc.

But, on the other hand, I don't think Luke is trying to say that things like murder or abortion are random either.

The classic reformed position--which is seen in scripture--is this: God foreordains the free actions of human beings to serve His purposes and display His glory.

So, while God Himself does not cause the murderer to directly commit the act of murder, He certainly knows what this person will choose--of his own free will--to do. And, what is more, God ordains that action to serve His purposes.

This idea is exactly what we see in the end of Genesis where Joseph tells his brothers "you intended it for evil, but God intended it for good."

There are two intentions--the evil intentions of the brothers and the holy intentions of God. These things are not at odds. God superintends the sinful actions of human beings to serve His purposes. This is precisely why Paul can say "God works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes."

Again, I think this is what Luke is trying to say. And, let me say, I may be wrong about his intentions. Also, I think he might have tried to say it better--something we all struggle with.

So, please let civility return. I don't like being the non-moderator who has to moderate.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Luke2427]

No matter how much you quote and bend to your own theological proclivities, no matter how loudly and incessantly you say it and repeat it, does not make it so Luke.

God's desire (will) is not murder. God's will is not abortion etc etc. etc.

How pitiful it is, your sense of theological smugness your consistent critical belittling of anyone who DARES to see God, His creation and mans relationship to Him in a different light than do you. Remind me, if ever in MS, I never wander in to worship where you lead. That is my choice.

The Bible is clear.



It does not matter to you that the Word of God says EXTRAORDINARILY clearly:

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

 

[DHK]

You do not understand my position at all and I am very articulate.

So it is due to willful blindness on your part or ignorance.

But none of that matters at this point.

You just said my God is a monster.

If you had an OUNCE of character- you would resign your position post haste or apologize.

You don't read very well.
I said "your perception of God makes him out to be a monster," and it does.

God is a God of love.
God is not willing that any should perish.
God wills that all should come to repentance.
Gods will is that all men should be saved.

Your beliefs contradict the above statements of the Word of God, and makes God out to be a very cruel God. Isn't that so?? By adding to the Word of God, you have made God out to be a very horrendous God.

 

[quantumfaith]

The Bible is clear. You don't care about the Bible.

Since our moderator can do it I'll say it something like he said it:

Your god is one of your own making, one that you find palatable, one that suits your ideals and meets your standards of right and wrong, isn't he?

It does not matter to you that the Word of God says EXTRAORDINARILY clearly:

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Who cares what the Bible says!?

I like this god- he makes me FEEL good.

No Luke....Wrong again. I care about the Word of God, I even "care" about you. I definitely DO NOT care for the continual attitude that you broadcast. That is what I dont care about.

 

[Luke2427]

If I may, please allow me an attempt to return civility and understanding on this issue.

Luke seems to be saying "God causes evil." I think this is where the whole confusion comes into play.

I don't think Luke is saying that God is the direct cause of things like murder, abortion, etc.

But, on the other hand, I don't think Luke is trying to say that things like murder or abortion are random either.

I appreciate this, Archangel- and you are right: that is what I am saying.

But I am being clear on it too.

I have said DOZENS of times to these very guys I am now talking to that God hates evil and that he is not the author of evil.

But I say bluntly and unmistakably clearly (and that is what sets some of them off) that God willed evil to exist and that nothing happens outside of his will.

That men mean it for evil but God means it for good.

I have been clear.

There is no need to clarify.

Be as clear as I am on it, and I venture to say they will call your God a monster, too.



But, as usual, your maturity and cool head, is extraordinarily helpful in these exchanges.

Thanks.

 

[Luke2427]

No Luke....Wrong again. I care about the Word of God, I even "care" about you. I definitely DO NOT care for the continual attitude that you broadcast. That is what I dont care about.

And I do not care for your blatant partisanship, either Quantum.

You wear the thumbs up button out for ANYONE who has ANYTHING to say against the doctrines of grace and try to paint Calvinists as arrogant bullies.

 

[jbh28]

You don't read very well.
I said "your perception of God makes him out to be a monster," and it does.

God is a God of love.
God is not willing that any should perish.
God wills that all should come to repentance.
Gods will is that all men should be saved.

Your beliefs contradict the above statements of the Word of God, and makes God out to be a very cruel God. Isn't that so?? By adding to the Word of God, you have made God out to be a very horrendous God.

We have to remember that the term "will" has multiple meanings. God's decretive will is always done. So is God's will always done. Yes. Are all God's desires done? Yes and no. It depends on how you look at it.

You look at our perspective of God has a God that isn't loving. I'm not sure why. If God only saved one person, he would be a loving and merciful God. It would be the greatest display of love and mercy ever. One problem I see with your argument is that it looks like a weak god. God wants all to be saved, but just can't do it.

As i mentioned earlier, while I would say God has a desire to save all(remember, He is the one saving) this is not his greatest desire.

btw, the Muslim comment was uncalled for. Let's remember we are all Christians here and we should be treating each other as such.

 

[Luke2427]

you have made God out to be a very horrendous God.

What a mess you are.

I am declaring line for line what EVERY Calvinist on this board and in the world believes on these things.

So according to you, Calvinism worships a horrendous Monster god.

 

[Rippon]

I was talking to you, Luke, not anyone else. I was addressing you.
Thus, more accurately my remarks were along this line:

Your perception of God makes him out to be cruel and vindictive--a monster. You have a religion wherein it is your God's will that abortion, murder, adultery, and even the transgression of all of his Ten Commandments are His very will. If a man commit murder then that is the will of God. That is not Biblical doctrine. I will say this again. That is the belief of Islam. It is fatalism, one of their basic tenets. I am sorry that you believe that way. But it is not Biblical doctrine.

You have said the same reprehensible things to me DHK. You haven't changed your tune. Step back and think before you post, especially since you are a moderator --act like one.

 

[DHK]

I appreciate this, Archangel- and you are right: that is what I am saying.

But I am being clear on it too.

I have said DOZENS of times to these very guys I am now talking to that God hates evil and that he is not the author of evil.

You haven't been clear on this Luke.
You have been saying that it is God's will for abortion to happen, for murder to happen, thus making God the author of sin.

But I say bluntly and unmistakably clearly (and that is what sets some of them off) that God willed evil to exist and that nothing happens outside of his will.

There is a perfect will and a permissive will. Let's look at a couple of examples.
One example is marriage. The Lord set out right in the beginning of Genesis what his plan for marriage was. One man joined to one woman, and those two were one flesh. Jesus said concerning that: What God therefore has put together let no man put asunder. It has always been the will of God for one man to have one wife.
However we come to a Godly man like David. God, in his permissive will, allowed David to have many wives. It wasn't his perfect will but he allowed it in his permissive will.
In the same way, as Jesus explained divorce to the Pharisees, Moses only allowed divorce "but for the hardness of your hearts, but from the beginning it was not so." It was in God's permissive will, not his perfect will.

There are many things that God permits or allows. That doesn't mean they are His will. God allows evil but it is not his will to take place. He is not going to force men like robots to do his will. Therefore his will does not get done because of the evil and hardness of man's heart. I believe you get that confused with the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign. He allows things to happen; knows what happens; and is in control all the time of what happens. He is sovereign. But his sovereignty must not be confused with His will. His perfect will is not always accomplished. Why? Because man is a sinner and will not be wholly sanctified until he reaches heaven. Even then, most of mankind is not even saved but in total rebellion to God, and thus God's will is not being done.

God's will is still that all men be saved, in spite of your objections. He makes no modifications to those verses. All means all.

That men mean it for evil but God means it for good.

Even the wrath of man will praise him. That is true. But that doesn't mean that the wrath of man is God's will. It isn't a license to sin because I know that the wrath of man will eventually praise God and therefore can play out this wrath on God's behalf. Sin is sin. Sin is never God's will. Don't confuse sin with God's will. God's will is that all men be saved. We know that will not happen. But that is because of the depraved heart of man, and that man, rejects Christ of his own free will.

 

[DHK]

You have said the same reprehensible things to me DHK. You haven't changed your tune. Step back and think before you post, especially since you are a moderator --act like one.

It is a debate forum. I am permitted to state my beliefs, and they are not Calvinistic. If that offends you, I am sorry but I shouldn't have to apologize for what I believe in, should I?

 

[Luke2427]

You haven't been clear on this Luke.
You have been saying that it is God's will for abortion to happen, for murder to happen, thus making God the author of sin.

One more time.

God hates evil.

Evil is necessary for the greater good (display of grace, mercy, wrath against sin, etc..)

God hates abortion but he has decreed every abortion that will ever take place.

He means them all for good- men who participate in them mean them all for evil.

That ought to be enough but I know I must explain this in a way that makes it more palatable for those who are more emotion driven.

This is a glorious truth because it means that that baby did not die in vain. God had a purpose for it. A GLORIOUS purpose that the murder of that child will fulfill- an eternal purpose.

This was not a random act- it was planned- it had a purpose.

God will use this horrible event for two things- his glory and our good.

That ought to be enough for ANY Christian.

 

[quantumfaith]

You haven't been clear on this Luke.
You have been saying that it is God's will for abortion to happen, for murder to happen, thus making God the author of sin.

There is a perfect will and a permissive will. Let's look at a couple of examples.
One example is marriage. The Lord set out right in the beginning of Genesis what his plan for marriage was. One man joined to one woman, and those two were one flesh. Jesus said concerning that: What God therefore has put together let no man put asunder. It has always been the will of God for one man to have one wife.
However we come to a Godly man like David. God, in his permissive will, allowed David to have many wives. It wasn't his perfect will but he allowed it in his permissive will.
In the same way, as Jesus explained divorce to the Pharisees, Moses only allowed divorce "but for the hardness of your hearts, but from the beginning it was not so." It was in God's permissive will, not his perfect will.

There are many things that God permits or allows. That doesn't mean they are His will. God allows evil but it is not his will to take place. He is not going to force men like robots to do his will. Therefore his will does not get done because of the evil and hardness of man's heart. I believe you get that confused with the sovereignty of God. God is sovereign. He allows things to happen; knows what happens; and is in control all the time of what happens. He is sovereign. But his sovereignty must not be confused with His will. His perfect will is not always accomplished. Why? Because man is a sinner and will not be wholly sanctified until he reaches heaven. Even then, most of mankind is not even saved but in total rebellion to God, and thus God's will is not being done.

God's will is still that all men be saved, in spite of your objections. He makes no modifications to those verses. All means all.

Even the wrath of man will praise him. That is true. But that doesn't mean that the wrath of man is God's will. It isn't a license to sin because I know that the wrath of man will eventually praise God and therefore can play out this wrath on God's behalf. Sin is sin. Sin is never God's will. Don't confuse sin with God's will. God's will is that all men be saved. We know that will not happen. But that is because of the depraved heart of man, and that man, rejects Christ of his own free will.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Just me being a "hack" again.

 

[DHK]

One more time.

God hates evil.

Evil is necessary for the greater good (display of grace, mercy, wrath against sin, etc..)

Evil was brought into this world by Adam's sin. It was not God's will. I believe your problem in all of this is trying to work back from the end to the beginning, and trying to get into the mind of God, which you cannot do. It is better to take God's Word by faith and believe whether or not you can understand his truths.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? (Habakkuk 1:13)
--God does not even condone evil. His eyes don't want to look upon it so to speak. Evil is not necessary for the greater good. Such a statement is irrational. Man's heart is wicked, and inspite of man's wicked heart and man's wicked choices (of his own free will), God can sovereignly over-rule on behalf of his children.

God hates abortion but he has decreed every abortion that will ever take place.

No, that is not true.
He never decreed that any abortion take place.
Like Job, he allowed suffering; he allowed the abortion, but it is not his will and never was. It is a sin. Sin is not the will of God. God allows sin because man is not a robot forced to do the will of God as you make him out to be. He has choices as God has given him--whether to do the will of God or not to do the will of God.

He means them all for good- men who participate in them mean them all for evil.

God created man for good, for his glory. The fact that man does not live for God's glory is because of his sin nature. God did not decree it that way. Man will be held accountable for his own sin, his own choices. God is not going to hold himself accountable for man's sins.

That ought to be enough but I know I must explain this in a way that makes it more palatable for those who are more emotion driven.

I am not the one that YELLS in over-sized letters.

This is a glorious truth because it means that that baby did not die in vain. God had a purpose for it. A GLORIOUS purpose that the murder of that child will fulfill- an eternal purpose.

The result is God's mercy, not God's will.
God's will is that abortion never take place. Abortion is murder. God never sanctioned murder, never!

This was not a random act- it was planned- it had a purpose.

It was only planned by a wicked and evil mind of man, not by a holy and righteous God.

God will use this horrible event for two things- his glory and our good.

God can and will do that. The wrath of man will praise Him. That doesn't mean it was God's will to abort an infant. The two don't go together. Do we therefore push for an abortion bill and praise China's one-child policy (aborting all further children) so we can populate heaven, and then declare it the will of God? That is perverse doctrine.

That ought to be enough for ANY Christian.

Enough for what??
Enough to confuse most people with a hodgepodge of doctrines that gives a very confusing picture of the nature of God.

 

[jbh28]

It is a debate forum. I am permitted to state my beliefs, and they are not Calvinistic. If that offends you, I am sorry but I shouldn't have to apologize for what I believe in, should I?

Come on, don't play that game. you know exactly what you were doing. You said Luke's theology was like that of a Muslim. don't play that "debate" card. Act like a Christian.

 

[Skandelon]

Luke,

Please allow me to cut to the heart of this matter...

Before a sin like murder, molestation, torture or some other heinous crime is committed there is a temptation or a thought that comes into the mind of the criminal, right?

Now, who is the first person who thought of the heinous sin of molesting and torturing a small child? Did God originate that thought or did it originate in the mind of a sinful criminal?

1. If God, then you have to defend your position that God is not the author of evil.
2. If the criminal, then you have to defend your position that God "controls all things," because you have someone creating or originating something apart from God.

 

[DHK]

Come on, don't play that game. you know exactly what you were doing. You said Luke's theology was like that of a Muslim. don't play that "debate" card. Act like a Christian.

Not quite. The way that Luke stated his belief was in the same way that Muslims believe in their doctrine of fatalism. I made a comparison. Christianity does not believe in fatalism; Islam does. If Luke does not want me to make such a comparison then he shouldn't state his beliefs in a way that expresses the doctrine of fatalism.

In another forum I have compared the RCC doctrine of baptismal regeneration to the Hindu belief of being baptized into the Ganges River. Both believe that water washes away their sins. The comparison offends. But it is accurate.

 

[Iconoclast]

You have in essence called God a liar.

Not at all Webdog, I just understand the verse,that you dhk,and quantum do not grasp for some reason.
Your failure to understand romans 5: 19 is leading you into error
The God of the bible accomplishes all that he wills. All those spoken of in 2pet 3:9 are saved......the word is bulemoi,[decreed destined or purposed]not thelo.....wish or desire. so you have a universal salvation, or you have God saving His elect. I believe the biblical testimony. DHK.....describes a wuess god who wants something to happen,but cannot accomplish what he wants, it reminds me of Elijah mocking the prophets of baal.

Met65...for you:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?

23and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

Many....multitudes will be cast away,Jesus will instruct the elect angels to send them into hell....they do not send themselves..Jesus sends them.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke,

Please allow me to cut to the heart of this matter...

Before a sin like murder, molestation, torture or some other heinous crime is committed there is a temptation or a thought that comes into the mind of the criminal, right?

Now, who is the first person who thought of the heinous sin of molesting and torturing a small child? Did God originate that thought or did it originate in the mind of a sinful criminal?

1. If God, then you have to defend your position that God is not the author of evil.
2. If the criminal, then you have to defend your position that God "controls all things," because you have someone creating or originating something apart from God.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: