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Does unconditional election make God partial?
- Thread starter 4His_glory
- Start date
I don't think I disagree with you.
The arminians here assume that God cannot scripturally show partiality and those opposing them seem to have accepted this premise for debate.
My point is that they are misinterpretting these passages. Their reading creates a contradiction in scripture since God does in fact show favor toward some people over others.
4His_glory
New Member
Andre, I appreciate your spirit during this discussion, but I fear you are trying to understand God through logic and philosophy. Though there are some things about God that can be understood logically, God many times is a-logical, that is to say above the realm of human reasoning. Often times we limit God by not alowing Him to be God, but forcing Him to fit our logical conclusions about Him.
4His_glory
New Member
...but God DOES elect based on what He sees...their heart, their faith in Him. This is the condition for election: believe and you will be saved! There is no arbitrary election, not "mysterious" reasons for election. The Bible tells us who is "elected" to Heaven. Those who have faith in His Son! </font>[/QUOTE]Can you provide a Scirptural basis that God elects based upon what He sees in the heart? Also you are forgeting that election takes place in eternity past.
If faith were were a condition for election, then it limits God in His choice, and ceases to become His choice. In other words I can say to God "You must elect me because I have faith!"
God does not elect based upon faith, He does it purely for His glory.
4His_glory
New Member
How? </font>[/QUOTE]Er...because He's choosing some people over others.
Yours in Christ
Matt </font>[/QUOTE]No, as I said in the OP there is nothing in man that God uses to determin His choice.
4His_glory
New Member
You hit the nail squarely on the head there. God post.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Andre,
I do understand the difference in subjects that you 1st address before making your statement about oats. The real subject as you pointed out is if there is inherent reasons in us for Gods grace.
I’m would not say it is unintelligible to hold to unconditional election, but I do understand wanting to apply reason other than our lack of just not understanding the subject.
as you said....
“It is easy claim that one's selection has nothing to do with one's own characteristics or attributes. I just don't think that such a claim can be made without some kind of dramatic revision to the fundamental way we conceive of the world.”
I’m not sure I can help in this understanding but i think we get insight if you look outside of God choosing a person and look at God choice of a nation. God could have used Egypt, Lebanon, Gog, or any nation he wanted. We can not say in Israel that it was because he saw only good in them. We have example after example of his people in sin. Hosea even shows Israel as a whore in gomer where she must be bought from a slave market
In looking at the nation..
In Deuteronomy 7:6,
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD
your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of
the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
****** “holy here is set apart...but ..Why the Jews?”
Deuteronomy 7:7,
The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you
because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you
were the fewest of all peoples.
*****Not because of greatness, but rather out of love
The Bible makes it plain that the choice of the Jewish people was a sovereign act of God. God as the Creator of the universe has the right to choose whom he wills. In Romans 9:21, we see that he can choose the vessels he has made, whether men or nations, for honor or for dishonor.
Election is Gods way of sharing His love with the world. Israel was choosen for this reason and out of love but not for their good.
The sovereign choice of Israel was for God’s own redemptive purposes on earth. In his wisdom he chose a family to influence families and a nation to influence nations. God chose Israel to introduce his word to the world. This was done in Christ.
In the fullness of time, God allowed Israel to bring forth his Messiah, in order that all nations could be blessed through him. God’s choice bore with it a great amount of responsibility, and it has resulted in an incredible degree of suffering for the Jewish people. We too as the church carry great responsibility to share Gods love. God now lives within our earthly temple. When we share Gods love and the Holy Spirit works and opens the eyes of the sinner election's end result happens again. That end result is salvation
Because of this responsibility and suffering, there are many Jews today who would just as soon NOT be the chosen people. The words of Tevye in the famous play, Fiddler on the Roof. “I know, I know we are the chosen people, but once in a while can’t you choose someone else!”
Gods choice of a nation for his purpose on earth could be carried out by any nation he chooses. The jews are only special because God choose them to carry this load. You can not say it was that Israel had holy living, for we do not see this.
But now, this is what the LORD says--he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. (Isaiah 43:1).
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--
7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." (Isaiah 43:5-7).
Why did God choose them? "created for my glory". To bring Him glory as well as to share in, and ultimately, to live in His glory!
verses10-13:
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed--I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No-one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (Isaiah 43:10-13).
Further aspects of His choosing the Jews.
BTW.. application is the US as believes!) revealed here.
"You are my witnesses...my servant whom I have chosen..", declares the Lord. Witnesses to what? "that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No-one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" Why did God choose Israel? Why is He calling and drawing people to Himself today? "I will be their God, and they will be my people...they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest".
Exodus 29:45-46
"Then I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God. They will know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God."
John 15:15-16
"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last."
Why did God choose? Why does He choose now? It all has to do with intimacy, relationship, in a word, with LOVE.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
So to answer you...there are NO inherent reasons in us for Gods grace. Gods grace has no reasom other than his Love
In Christ...James
I do understand the difference in subjects that you 1st address before making your statement about oats. The real subject as you pointed out is if there is inherent reasons in us for Gods grace.
I’m would not say it is unintelligible to hold to unconditional election, but I do understand wanting to apply reason other than our lack of just not understanding the subject.
as you said....
“It is easy claim that one's selection has nothing to do with one's own characteristics or attributes. I just don't think that such a claim can be made without some kind of dramatic revision to the fundamental way we conceive of the world.”
I’m not sure I can help in this understanding but i think we get insight if you look outside of God choosing a person and look at God choice of a nation. God could have used Egypt, Lebanon, Gog, or any nation he wanted. We can not say in Israel that it was because he saw only good in them. We have example after example of his people in sin. Hosea even shows Israel as a whore in gomer where she must be bought from a slave market
In looking at the nation..
In Deuteronomy 7:6,
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD
your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of
the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
****** “holy here is set apart...but ..Why the Jews?”
Deuteronomy 7:7,
The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you
because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you
were the fewest of all peoples.
*****Not because of greatness, but rather out of love
The Bible makes it plain that the choice of the Jewish people was a sovereign act of God. God as the Creator of the universe has the right to choose whom he wills. In Romans 9:21, we see that he can choose the vessels he has made, whether men or nations, for honor or for dishonor.
Election is Gods way of sharing His love with the world. Israel was choosen for this reason and out of love but not for their good.
The sovereign choice of Israel was for God’s own redemptive purposes on earth. In his wisdom he chose a family to influence families and a nation to influence nations. God chose Israel to introduce his word to the world. This was done in Christ.
In the fullness of time, God allowed Israel to bring forth his Messiah, in order that all nations could be blessed through him. God’s choice bore with it a great amount of responsibility, and it has resulted in an incredible degree of suffering for the Jewish people. We too as the church carry great responsibility to share Gods love. God now lives within our earthly temple. When we share Gods love and the Holy Spirit works and opens the eyes of the sinner election's end result happens again. That end result is salvation
Because of this responsibility and suffering, there are many Jews today who would just as soon NOT be the chosen people. The words of Tevye in the famous play, Fiddler on the Roof. “I know, I know we are the chosen people, but once in a while can’t you choose someone else!”
Gods choice of a nation for his purpose on earth could be carried out by any nation he chooses. The jews are only special because God choose them to carry this load. You can not say it was that Israel had holy living, for we do not see this.
But now, this is what the LORD says--he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. (Isaiah 43:1).
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--
7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." (Isaiah 43:5-7).
Why did God choose them? "created for my glory". To bring Him glory as well as to share in, and ultimately, to live in His glory!
verses10-13:
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed--I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No-one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (Isaiah 43:10-13).
Further aspects of His choosing the Jews.
BTW.. application is the US as believes!) revealed here.
"You are my witnesses...my servant whom I have chosen..", declares the Lord. Witnesses to what? "that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No-one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" Why did God choose Israel? Why is He calling and drawing people to Himself today? "I will be their God, and they will be my people...they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest".
Exodus 29:45-46
"Then I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God. They will know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God."
John 15:15-16
"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last."
Why did God choose? Why does He choose now? It all has to do with intimacy, relationship, in a word, with LOVE.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
So to answer you...there are NO inherent reasons in us for Gods grace. Gods grace has no reasom other than his Love
In Christ...James
Yes, that is possible. But theology is a different type of debate. In theology, we are not debating from conclusions and assertions, but from inspired revelation. When God says "X," then "X" is true, regardless of whether our minds can comprehend it. Not everything in Scripture is equally clear, but there is certainly enough that is clear to answer most questions. I am not against reasoning. To the contrary, I am saying we should understand the limits of reasoning.
Because of the nature of revelation. You will note that I have not argued that "the Spirit taught me," Or "God led me to believe ..." Those are invalid arguments for the precise reason you acknowledge. We are dealing with propositional statements of revealed truth to which we must conform our thinking. If your child asserted that 2+2=5, you would not let him continue. You would explain that his mind did not compute that properly. The same is true here. Revealed truth is the standard of what we should believe, not our own personal intelligibility.
Exactly right, and logical thinking cannot exist consistently without submission to the revealed truth of God's word.
Human reasoning does work and we are commanded by God to use it. But we must realize its limitations and its need to be informed by Scripture. We must also realize the role of common grace that allows sinful minds to come to truth in various ways.
I said no such thing. I only said God knows our hearts, and where our faith is. This is required from all men, and I know you agree, just not on who is enabled. This has nothing to do with God loving us because we would some day love Him. This was in response to the following statement:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is not any biblical evidence that God elects based on what he sees in certain men. All are depraved sinners, all are deserving of judgment, therefore any election to salvation is unconditional and completly of grace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but God DOES elect based on what He sees...their heart, their faith in Him. This is the condition for election: believe and you will be saved! There is no arbitrary election, not "mysterious" reasons for election. The Bible tells us who is "elected" to Heaven. Those who have faith in His Son! </font>[/QUOTE]Can you provide a Scirptural basis that God elects based upon what He sees in the heart? Also you are forgeting that election takes place in eternity past.
If faith were were a condition for election, then it limits God in His choice, and ceases to become His choice. In other words I can say to God "You must elect me because I have faith!"
God does not elect based upon faith, He does it purely for His glory. </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 10:13 "whoever calls on the name of the Lord WILL be saved", not "were saved from eternity past.
I agree. If faith were a condition of election, only those with faith would be the elect. That's what the Bible tells us. To say that this limits God is false. Noone is saying "you must elect me because I have faith". This logic is like me telling you if you sing me a song, I will give you $100. After you sing the song I give you the $100 I promised, you don't tell me "you must now give me $100 because I sang your song!" That's silly. God tells us to have faith in Him. If we do, we become the "elect". That's the condition outlined in the Bible, not me.
To say God does not elect based on our faith in Him is unbiblical. It's everywhere in scripture.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Please cite the scriptures that plainly and specifically communicate this idea that God elects us based on our faith.
While you are at it...
Elect means "selected or picked out". How can that word apply to the order you suggest?
If it was my faith that caused God to accept me then He didn't pick me out... I picked Him out.
Elect directly implies a choice. Your proposition comes very close to non-sensical since it denies that God had a choice. He could only select us after we decided to have faith... and ostensibly could not reject us if we had faith. You have made a statement that is self-contradictory.
You stick to only one possible meaning of election, and it is based on your theology. That's fine. Based on what I think scripture says, election or the "elect" are the gentiles who were predestined to be the elect, along with the jews.
Salvation being the end result of election makes no sense, unless you have knowledge of the conditions you set forth. This is what I believe, in God's infinite foreknowledge he knew who the "elect" would be since the foundation of the world.
4His_glory
New Member
I would like to see that Scripture. If we are elect before the foundation of the world, as the Bible says believers are, then how on earth can election be based upon faith? Did we produce faith before the world began?
4His_glory
New Member
Not to salvation? Yet the Scripture says otherwise:
1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Eph 1:4-6
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
You seem to reduce election to mean somthing that it does not mean. It only means to choose, the Gr. noun translated "elect" means "called out ones".
If God choose them based upon there faith, then He really did not choose them, since they had somthing to do with it.
I say that it is all of God, and that even faith is a gift from Him.
2 Thess 2:13 and 2 Tim 2:10 both show that election is different from salvation.
You cite Rom 10:13 as evidence of election being based on faith, but that verse doesn't even talk about election.
You cite Rom 10:13 as evidence of election being based on faith, but that verse doesn't even talk about election.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Calvinists argue that the perfectly arbitrary nature of God's "pure" partiality -- "pure Bias" is so arbitrary that it could not possibly "be partial".
But this is not the meaning of "impartial" AND it is an argument totally unworkable in Romans 2.
Notice that the text is NOT simply saying "God is PERFECTLY biased in that there is NOTHING about the PERSON that determines that God will favor person A OVER person B".
In fact that text makes the OPPOSITE argument.
The SAME picture of an impartial - all knowing God is presented both in Matt 7 and Romans 2.
See the "details".
In Christ,
Bob
But this is not the meaning of "impartial" AND it is an argument totally unworkable in Romans 2.
Notice that the text is NOT simply saying "God is PERFECTLY biased in that there is NOTHING about the PERSON that determines that God will favor person A OVER person B".
In fact that text makes the OPPOSITE argument.
God "shows" that the issue of future justification is settled on the same basis that Christ defines in Matt 7 where HE says "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES..."
The SAME picture of an impartial - all knowing God is presented both in Matt 7 and Romans 2.
See the "details".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The above is a perfect example of the "calvinized-redefinition" of impartial.
In Pastor Larry's proposal above "Partial is defined as allowing ANYTHING except your OWN bias to determine the SELECTION of the FEW over the many".
This "perfect" example of PARTIALITY is "calvinized" to be called the definition of "impartial".
How instructive.
In Christ,
Bob