Does unconditional election make God partial?

[King James Bond]

Bob,

My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

You say;

As was "already posted" - Christ is praying for the blessings that follow after believing.

His John 17 prayer is NOT to pray "Father May these followers please BELIEVE and accept the Gospel. I also pray this same blessing of BELIEVING on all who would BELIEVE through them" as the circular argument, KJB is trying to promote, would have it -

Bob, the prayer is not for the world (which happens to stand judged as guilty) it for all those YOU have given ME. Those that will be pardoned.

Who is the YOU and ME? Who is doing the giving?

Jesus says in John 6:37,

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

That is an absolute proclamation of truth!

It has NO basis on the sinful nature of mankind.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

Take care Bob. Regards, KJB

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said in John 17 --
My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

Bob said

As was "already posted" - Christ is praying for the blessings that follow after believing.

His John 17 prayer is NOT to pray "Father May these followers please BELIEVE and accept the Gospel. I also pray this same blessing of BELIEVING on all who would BELIEVE through them" as the circular argument, KJB is trying to promote, would have it -

Originally posted by King James Bond:

Bob, the prayer is not for the world (which happens to stand judged as guilty)

By "world" you must not be thinking that "believers are part of that world" so this would be the "world of unbelievers". I agree as "already stated above" Christ is claiming subsequent blessing that FOLLOWS after one accepts the Gospel.

He is NOT making the Calvinist circular argument of claiming a promise that only BELIEVERS might BELIEVE.

So lets see what is going on here in John 17 --

=========================================

John 17
6 "" I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Here the term “world” includes BOTH believers and unbelievers for these that are Christ’s came from “the world”

John 17
7 ""Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8 for the []bwords which You gave Me I have given[/b] to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

Here the actions of God and the actions of the believers are clearly identified. God GIVES the Word – and those who choose to follow God take the action of receving the words Given by Christ. This is stated explicitly “in the text”. No chance of denying it.

John 17
9 "" I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 ""I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 ""While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Here we see Christ separating the believers from the World – claiming promises that could only apply to those that choose to believe.
#1. He says that those who choose to receive to believe to accept His Word – have Christ “Glorified IN them”
#2. He says that those who have taken the John 17:8 action of ‘receiving” are “no longer in the world” and He asks God to “keep them” to preserve them in that state. Obviously asking God to “preserve the lost in an unbelieving state” would be nonsense – this is a request for “subsequent blessings” that follow “belief” and therefore that could not apply to unbelievers.
#3. This INCLUDES unbelievers that would ONE day believe – THEY TOO can not be “preserved in UNBELIEF” that is “KEPT in their current state” (as He prays for BELIEVERS) and have that actually be a “blessing” to these UNBELIEVERS that would one day BE believers. So this prayer of “keeping them” in the state that they have come to be in “no longer in the world” can only be applicable to those who already BELIEVE.

John 17
13 ""But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 ""I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 ""I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 "" They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 "" Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 ""As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

Here ‘again’ Christ claims promises that can not apply to unbelievers – not even unbelievers that will ONE DAY BELIEVE! until AFTER they actually believe.

#1. While in UNBLIEF they are STILL “of this world”
#2. While still IN unbelief they are NOT set apart – not sanctified NOT walking in truth NOT born again NOT in union with Christ.
#3. Unbelievers that one day will be believers – are NOT sent into the world as witnesses of God WHILE still in unbelief!!

So obviously this prayer can only apply to believers that HAVE ALREADY accepted Christ. The blessings Christ is claiming for the saints in John 17 are “subsequent blessing” to that of choosing Christ!

John 17
19 ""For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 ""I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Here is the statement of Christ made even more explicitly that it applies to unbelievers ONLY when in that future day they choose to BELIEVE.

Here also we see the “subsequent” blessing that follows the choice to accept Christ. “That they may be one”. Unblievers that will ONE DAY choose to believe are not “ONE with the saints” while in UNBELIEF – as Saul illustrates before becoming Paul. Rather they are more typically at war with the saints.

But also Christ addresses the unbelieving world in vs 21 “so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Instead of Christ in John 17 declaring that “I only care for those that are believers but NOT the world” Christ asks that the blessings given to believers will be useful in bringing about the faith/belief/salvation of the “UNBELIEVING” world!!

22 ""The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 ""Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Here is the ultimate “subsequent blessing” claimed for those that have already chosen to follow Christ. Heaven itself. This is never the “blessing” given to those who have not accepted Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

The WORLD is guilty! Does that help you to understand? None are innocent. Not you or me.

The WORLD meaning every person stands as guilty before God. Every person DESERVES Hell and to be punished.

The wages we have all earned are not blessings.

Blessings (Including salvation) is something undeserved.

If you can ever get these points it would do you wonders! Only God can give sight.

GOD'S WORK TOWARD A PERSON'S SALVATION IS ABSOLUTELY COMPLETE.

NOTHING NEED OR CAN BE CONTRIBUTED BY MAN TOWARD HIS SALVATION.

MAN IS UNABLE TO CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING ACCEPTABLE TOWARD HIS SALVATION.

THE BELIEVER IS IMMEDIATELY VIEWED BY GOD AS HAVING BEEN RAISED UP IN PERFECTION AND SEATED IN HEAVEN.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

If I were you I would boast of all the things the LORD can and has done and leave your own wretched heart out of it. Just to be on the safe side!

God bless, KJB...

 

[rc]

Pharaoh hardened his heart? What does it say after EVERY account where it says this? ... oh yeah ... AS THE LORD HAD SAID, giving the burden of the action upon God for the hardening obviously you didn't read the whole ACCOUNT.

How can a "dead man" harden his heart,or why does God harden it if Pharaoh (or anybody else for that matter) is totally depraved?
This shows the ignorance of the understanding of God's grace and His sovereignty, and scripture for that matter. Man is DEAD spiritually. This does not mean that man does not choose. It means his choices are in the FLESH. It means he does NOTHING for the glory of God, he is spiritually appraised. Man completely left to himself without any grace from God would extinct himself in sin. God does not allow this to happen. His grace only allows for so much liberty of sin to take place according to His purpose. And this is what Bob doesn't understand about the Exodus account and the Romans account. The whole point Paul is trying to make is the PURPOSE of God and His sovereign will to carry out His sovereign plan and His ability to do so. Hardening by God is not to soften! The statement itself is self refuting! How silly, these are just statements with no understanding of the subject. Dead men still choose. They are completely evil in all their acts. But God's staying hand prevents man to be as evil as they are possible of being. Again, God's grace is the only reason why we aren't in tyranny world wide. The only thing God has to do to make a man's heart hard is to leave him to his own sinful desires and give him MORE freedom by removing His loving grace from the situation for His purpose. He has only done this world wide a few times. This is a perfect example of how evil man is, when God gives man MORE freedom... What are these great examples of men being more free to do what he desires? Pharaoh killing all the male babies, wanting to kill the Jews in the Red sea, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini. Great humanitarians huh?

Just because a man is dead spiritually doesn't mean that man is DEAD... How silly. The meaning is that man is "unable" like a "dead man" to live in the spiritual world. He is in the FLESH and all the "choices" he makes is in the FLESH.


Romans 8:7-9 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Get it? The Greek is better for verse 7 and makes the point even BETTER. It is properly translated " The flesh mind" is at enmity with God... funny how you used this very word "enmity" to show that man HAS ability to choose God! ha! This is in direct opposition to your eisegesis. It ALSO pits the direct opposite in verse seven comparatively with those who do not have a FLESH MIND... those who HAVE a "Spirit mind"... THus if you are DEAD spiritually you are FLESH MINDED... and that is always at ENMITY with GOD and CAN NOT PLEASE Him.
So... Pharaoh was flesh minded.. but still "lives", just according to the flesh, like the rest of every "Totally Depraved" God hater out there.
Pharaoh in the FLESH could have made many choices, but God FOR HIS PURPOSE lifted even the small amount of grace that He had on Egypt to MAKE CERTAIN of the actions of Pharaoh.

“enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent”

There is absolutely NO EXEGESIS to prove this point. This is CHRIST "the seed of the woman" that is at enmity with Satan... This has NOTHING to do with enabling at all... That issue is settled in John 6.44.


Man's will is neutral? You would never make a decision then. Again this is not scriptural in the first place and secondly it is futile in EVERY philosophical way. Again these reasonings come from a lack of understanding of the act of the will and the essence of a free will. You have to do a study on the "inclination" of the heart Bob. This is what gives birth to thought. What does it say about mans heart Bob?
EVIL... continually. In the masoretic text it is even stronger... it means that the heart itself gives birth to evil.

Thanks for bringing up a good text on the depravity of man in Isaiah 26.

Jeremiah 5:3

3 Thou hast smitten them, But they did not weaken, Thou hast consumed them But they Refused to take Correction
They have made their faces harder than rock, they have refused to repent (speaking of Israel not Egypt)

Again you poor Arminians using indicatives and trying to imply imperatives. Luther said elementary boys know better than to mix the two!

This is a statement of fact. That's it. And a VERY POOR text for saying anything other than man hates God's instruction. Use inductive study for crying out loud! This says NOTHING about God wanting to "soften" mans hearts... How unbiblical can you get! Stop using readers response understanding and use proper exegetical meanings by using what is proper for hermeneutics, it's called authors intent. This was an indicative to show mans hatred for God's instruction and that is ALL you can get from the text. Nowhere does it say that God was softening.

Revelation and the door knocking? Please, every school boy knows that this was Christ talking to THE CHURCH.