Does your church have an altar?

[Salty]

Greetings,

Search it out for yourself.
I am not being divisive, those who believe a falsehood, like the "altar" are the ones being divisive......not I.
This is the end of this conversation.....

So are you saying it is wrong to have an altar?
Is there a difference between a physical one or a symbolic one?

 

[Campion]

So are you saying it is wrong to have an altar?
Is there a difference between a physical one or a symbolic one?

Good point. It's like the argument against the belief of the early Christians who believed Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Some argued that would make them cannibals. But if what He offers is just symbolic, then logically if you use the cannibal accusation, you would have to affirm Jesus instituted symbolic cannibalism. Don't want to derail this thread, but you made a good point.

 

[Salty]

Good point. It's like the argument against the belief of the early Christians who believed Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Some argued that would make them cannibals. But if what He offers is just symbolic, then logically if you use the cannibal accusation, you would have to affirm Jesus instituted symbolic cannibalism. Don't want to derail this thread, but you made a good point.

so I did start a new thread: Transubstantiation…

Yes, the Lords Supper is symbolic - which means the elements are NOT the actual physical body of Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Hardly, as the Church existed before St. John put those words to papyrus. Hence Christians were being martyred before those words were written. Building churches, with the altar directly above a martyr, was the ultimate sign of profession of belief in the resurrection and the communion of saints. I'll ask you: Ever been to the Holy Land or Rome? If so, you must have felt like a complete foreigner stepping into those churches of antiquity.

As for the animism / idolatry charge, it is rather tired in light of history...

View attachment 6143


"Behold, I make all things new."

You are arguing from your pagan traditions, not scripture, campion. Pointing me back to the corruption of the early church will not inspire me to follow their corruption.
John brings the language of the altar into Revelation precisely because he is talking about the Lamb who was slain. Putting an altar over the bones of a dead person is the behavior of an animist pagan who is ignorant of the Lamb who died for sin.
No biblically literate person would do such a thing and certainly none of the Apostles ever advocated such a pagan ritual.

 

[Campion]

You are arguing from your pagan traditions, not scripture, campion. Pointing me back to the corruption of the early church will not inspire me to follow their corruption.
John brings the language of the altar into Revelation precisely because he is talking about the Lamb who was slain. Putting an altar over the bones of a dead person is the behavior of an animist pagan who is ignorant of the Lamb who died for sin.
No biblically literate person would do such a thing and certainly none of the Apostles ever advocated such a pagan ritual.

John is describing the martyrs, not the Lamb in Revelation 6:9...

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held."

Again, the early Church recognized the symbolism in this. That is why most of the Church's earliest churches were built on the tomb of a martyr. This was the ultimate expression of the belief in the resurrection of the dead and the communion of saints.

If you were to enter one of these churches from antiquity, you would feel like a complete stranger / foreigner as the faith of those who built those churches is something completely different from the faith you profess.

 

[CalTech]

How sad, as you will have missed what Christians from antiquity built and how they worshipped.

In the Holy Land, the first Protestant church was not built until the 19th century, when the Anglicans opened Christ Church in Jerusalem in 1849. In fact, Protestants had to even create their own mock holy Sepulchre, which they named the Garden Tomb and created 150 years ago.

In Rome, the first Protestant church was not built there until the 19th century as well, when Americans built St. Paul's Within the Walls. (St. Paul's Outside the Walls is a Catholic Church built on the site of St. Paul's tomb. The altar is directly above his tomb.)

Again, if you entered these churches from antiquity, you would feel like a complete foreigner, as the faith of the early Christians is clearly a different faith than what you profess.

Greetings,

"Again, if you entered these churches from antiquity, you would feel like a complete foreigner, as the faith of the early Christians is clearly a different faith than what you profess.[/QUOTE]

Yes I do agree with you on this point......I would be a "stranger" as what their faith consists, is not the Gospel that I believe in.

I am not of the "Anglican" nor the RCC denomination's.

The Lord bless you.....
In His Love....

 

[CalTech]

So are you saying it is wrong to have an altar?
Is there a difference between a physical one or a symbolic one?

Greetings,

I am saying that an "altar" built by the hands of man is not needed nor acceptable.
For Jesus Christ does represent the Altar, in the Spiritual sense.


The Lord bless you.....
In His Love....

 

[Campion]

Greetings,

"Again, if you entered these churches from antiquity, you would feel like a complete foreigner, as the faith of the early Christians is clearly a different faith than what you profess.

Yes I do agree with you on this point......I would be a "stranger" as what their faith consists, is not the Gospel that I believe in.

I am not of the "Anglican" nor the RCC denomination's.

The Lord bless you.....
In His Love....

Indeed, you would be a complete stranger. Nonetheless, I hope you get to visit one day. The Holy Land is a special place and St. Jerome called it the Fifth Gospel.

A happy Easter season to you and God bless.

 

[tyndale1946]

Greetings,

I am saying that an "altar" built by the hands of man is not needed nor acceptable.
For Jesus Christ does represent the Altar, in the Spiritual sense.


The Lord bless you.....
In His Love....

It is interesting that if you look at the layout in the wilderness of the Children of Israel's worship... Humm now let see what is it in shape of?... And it was all fulfilled in, the Son Of God Jesus Christ... Brother Glen

 

[CalTech]

Indeed, you would be a complete stranger. Nonetheless, I hope you get to visit one day. The Holy Land is a special place and St. Jerome called it the Fifth Gospel.

A happy Easter season to you and God bless.

Greetings,
Thank you. However I will not be visiting Israel any time soon, not during the current affairs of the wicked world in which we live.

I have the True "Holy Land, God's Kingdom" dwelling within my Heart and soul, and mind.
For HE is my Resting Place, My refuge, My shelter in a time of storm, My Living Tabernacle, the Joy of my heart, the Lover of my Soul.........For I have seen in part, the Beauty of His Holiness......which makes me "sick of Love"....for my Beloved Saviour.

The Lord bless you....
In His Love.....

 

[AustinC]

John is describing the martyrs, not the Lamb in Revelation 6:9...

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held."

Again, the early Church recognized the symbolism in this. That is why most of the Church's earliest churches were built on the tomb of a martyr. This was the ultimate expression of the belief in the resurrection of the dead and the communion of saints.

If you were to enter one of these churches from antiquity, you would feel like a complete stranger / foreigner as the faith of those who built those churches is something completely different from the faith you profess.

Look at Revelation 5 and 6. The entire issue of the scrolls is...Who will open them? The answer is, the Lamb who was slain and who conquered death. Thus, the entire reason why an altar is mentioned, is not because of the martyred saints, but entirely because the Lamb of God is the sacrifice, on that altar, who ensures the salvation of all of us who are found under that altar.
This is poetic language in its finest and you seem oblivious to this fact. You keep beating a dead horse and broken drum regarding the horrible paganism that crept into the early church. Moreover, you rejoice in this paganism, which is shocking and revolting to the Bible. Why would you cling to a pagan tradition and not cling to God's word alone?

 

[CalTech]

It is interesting that if you look at the layout in the wilderness of the Children of Israel's worship... Humm now let see what is it in shape of?... And it was all fulfilled in, the Son Of God Jesus Christ... Brother Glen

Greetings,

AMEN!

For Jesus Christ IS the LIVING TABERNACLE in whom we dwell and in whom we WORSHIP!
Praise His Glorious name!
Let us greet one another with a Holy Kiss!

Rom_16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
1Co_16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
2Co_13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.
1Th_5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1Pe_5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.


The Lord bless you.....
In His Love......

 

[Salty]

Greetings,

I am saying that an "altar" built by the hands of man is not needed nor acceptable.
For Jesus Christ does represent the Altar, in the Spiritual sense.


The Lord bless you.....
In His Love....

But you did NOT answer my question
Is it WRONG to do so.

Just because something is not needed does not mean it is wrong.

 

[CalTech]

But you did NOT answer my question
Is it WRONG to do so.

Just because something is not needed does not mean it is wrong.

Greetings,

Did you not see the words "NOR ACCEPTABLE"? So that means it is "UNACCEPTABLE"

Unacceptable:

unacceptable
ŭn″ĭk-sĕp′tə-bəl, -ăk-
adjective

1. Not acceptable; unsatisfactory.
2. Not acceptable; not pleasing; not welcome; unpleasant; disagreeable; displeasing; offensive.
3. unsatisfactory; not acceptable
   
   If something is "unacceptable" then one can know it is Wrong to have one. What would be the need for it? Jesus was the Altar, and the sacrifice......it has been down away with. "old things have passed away", all thing have become new!
   
   I do hope this gives you some clarity.......
   The Lord bless you.....
   In His Love....

 

[Salty]

Greetings,

Did you not see the words "NOR ACCEPTABLE"? So that means it is "UNACCEPTABLE"

Unacceptable:

unacceptable
ŭn″ĭk-sĕp′tə-bəl, -ăk-
adjective

1. Not acceptable; unsatisfactory.
2. Not acceptable; not pleasing; not welcome; unpleasant; disagreeable; displeasing; offensive.
3. unsatisfactory; not acceptable
   
   If something is "unacceptable" then one can know it is Wrong to have one. What would be the need for it? Jesus was the Altar, and the sacrifice......it has been down away with. "old things have passed away", all thing have become new!
   
   I do hope this gives you some clarity.......
   The Lord bless you.....
   In His Love....

Unacceptable does NOT mean Wrong!

So for the LAST time -
"So are you saying it is wrong to have an altar?"

All I need is a "yes" or "no".

 

[CalTech]

Unacceptable does NOT mean Wrong!

So for the LAST time -
"So are you saying it is wrong to have an altar?"

All I need is a "yes" or "no".

Greetings,

I am finished, it seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing, since I said the word wrong in my last posting.
And unacceptable means wrong! If something is unacceptable to the Lord, then that means it is NOT acceptable.......which means it is wrong.....period....quite simple truly.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

The Lord bless you....
In His Love.....

 

[JonC]

We are kinda missing the point of the Protestant altar by speaking as if only one definition is acceptable.

An altar is a raised area specifically designated as a place for sacrifice, worship, or prayer. It is a table or a place which serves as a center for worship or ritual (e.g., wedding altar).

 

[Salty]

Greetings,
.....

Apparently you do not like to answer questions
So I am adding you to my list.

 

[Campion]

Look at Revelation 5 and 6. The entire issue of the scrolls is...Who will open them? The answer is, the Lamb who was slain and who conquered death. Thus, the entire reason why an altar is mentioned, is not because of the martyred saints, but entirely because the Lamb of God is the sacrifice, on that altar, who ensures the salvation of all of us who are found under that altar.
This is poetic language in its finest and you seem oblivious to this fact. You keep beating a dead horse and broken drum regarding the horrible paganism that crept into the early church. Moreover, you rejoice in this paganism, which is shocking and revolting to the Bible. Why would you cling to a pagan tradition and not cling to God's word alone?

I think many fail to recognize the book of Revelation is a beautiful representation of the Christian belief in the communion of saints. Revelation shows us the saints in heaven engaged in worship, complete with an altar, candles, vested priests, chanting the Sanctus and Alleluia, etc. The Christian liturgy on earth resembles the heavenly liturgy. For Christianity is itself a liturgical tradition.

Now Revelation 6:9...

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?'" (Rev. 6:9-10)

The martyrs are the ones slain for their testimony and witness. (This is what the word "martyr" means.) They are now interceding with God for those of us on Earth. They express their concern to the Lord for those on Earth. Their prayer of intercession is answered and God assures them He will trump ever though they will still be persecuted. God will clothe them in while robes as the proceeding verses tell us.

So once again early Christians built their altars over the saints to serve as a reminder of the belief in the resurrection and the communion of saints. Revelation is a beautiful express of the heavenly liturgy, which we participate in when we celebrate the Eucharist. This is why if you stepped into a church in antiquity, you would be a complete stranger and foreigner, as the faith of the early Church is completely foreign to many who claim to profess it today.

 

[AustinC]

I think many fail to recognize the book of Revelation is a beautiful representation of the Christian belief in the communion of saints. Revelation shows us the saints in heaven engaged in worship, complete with an altar, candles, vested priests, chanting the Sanctus and Alleluia, etc. The Christian liturgy on earth resembles the heavenly liturgy. For Christianity is itself a liturgical tradition.

Now Revelation 6:9...

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?'" (Rev. 6:9-10)

The martyrs are the ones slain for their testimony and witness. (This is what the word "martyr" means.) They are now interceding with God for those of us on Earth. They express their concern to the Lord for those on Earth. Their prayer of intercession is answered and God assures them He will trump ever though they will still be persecuted. God will clothe them in while robes as the proceeding verses tell us.

So once again early Christians built their altars over the saints to serve as a reminder of the belief in the resurrection and the communion of saints. Revelation is a beautiful express of the heavenly liturgy, which we participate in when we celebrate the Eucharist. This is why if you stepped into a church in antiquity, you would be a complete stranger and foreigner, as the faith of the early Church is completely foreign to many who claim to profess it today.

Wow, that's just messed up eisegesis going on in your post campion. You state two unproven (by scripture) assertions:
1) "Christianity is itself a liturgical tradition."

No, it is not. It is biblical truth. Any tradition that adds to truth is accursed.

2) "They are now interceding with God for those of us on Earth. They express their concern to the Lord for those on Earth. Their prayer of intercession..."

No. Your comment here is the teaching of Animists who offer prayers to their ancestors. It is pagan, through and through.

Once again you attempt to hijack a thread with your" Samaritan" teachings.