Does your church have an altar?

[CalTech]

Apparently you do not like to answer questions
So I am adding you to my list.

Greetings,

Yes, I do. You just do not like the answer's to your question's.
Thank you for adding me to your list....it is truly a blessing......

The Lord bless you......
In His Love....

 

[Campion]

Wow, that's just messed up eisegesis going on in your post campion. You state two unproven (by scripture) assertions:
1) "Christianity is itself a liturgical tradition."

No, it is not. It is biblical truth. Any tradition that adds to truth is accursed.

2) "They are now interceding with God for those of us on Earth. They express their concern to the Lord for those on Earth. Their prayer of intercession..."

No. Your comment here is the teaching of Animists who offer prayers to their ancestors. It is pagan, through and through.

Once again you attempt to hijack a thread with your" Samaritan" teachings.

This is a perfect example of why if you walked into a church of antiquity, you would be a complete stranger. It is because the faith of the Christians of antiquity is not the faith you profess. It explains why there is even a thread asking if an altar is necessary. For the non-Catholic and non-Orthodox, such a question demonstrates you have no idea what you are even doing when you gather for your mock eucharistic services.

The liturgy is the central reservoir from which the religious paradigms and beliefs of the people were drawn. The same Greek verb translated as "ministering" is used for both the actions of the Jewish priests and the apostles who were "ministering to the Lord" in Acts 13:2. According to Acts, the apostles were worshipping in Jewish synagogues and the temple in Jerusalem.

. . . they continued, daily, to be of one accord in the temple and to break bread among the houses . . .Acts 2:46

Then Paul, taking the men on the next day, was purified with them, and he entered the temple, announcing the process of the days of purification, until an oblation would be offered on behalf of each one of them. Acts 21:26

. . . they arrived at Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, according to custom, entered to them. Acts 17:2

If Paul went into a Greek Church today he would hear chanting of the same Psalms in the same language that he heard both in Greek-speaking synagogues and in early Christian worship:

. . . be filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking among yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual canticles, singing and reciting psalms to the Lord in your hearts, giving thanks always for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God the Father. Eph 5:18-20


The liturgy that the Apostles offered was based on the Jewish liturgies. It is no accident that the same verb is used for the Jewish and Christian worship, which included the Eucharist. The Passover itself, a foreshadow of the Eucharist, was a liturgy, which is why the upper room was "Prepared". It followed a strict formula with chanting and Psalms and vestments, etc. This form of worship continues to this day in Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches.

A few other points:

Luke 1:23 speaks of a Liturgy (λειτουργίας).

Luke 1:23 "καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἐπλήσθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τῆς λειτουργίας αὐτοῦ, ἀπῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ."


Acts 13:2 speaks of liturgizing (λειτουργούντων).

Acts 13:2 "λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ Κυρίῳ καὶ νηστευόντων εἶπε τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον· ἀφορίσατε δή μοι τὸν Βαρνάβαν καὶ τὸν Σαῦλον εἰς τὸ ἔργον ὃ προσκέκλημαι αὐτούς."


Heb 8:2 declares Jesus to be the Holy Liturgist (λειτουργὸς).

Heb 8:2 "τῶν ἁγίων λειτουργὸς καὶ τῆς σκηνῆς τῆς ἀληθινῆς, ἣν ἔπηξεν ὁ Κύριος, καὶ οὐκ ἄνθρωπος."



And yes, the Revelation of St. John is most assuredly full of symbolism of the Old Covenant liturgy, which points to the realty which is the heavenly liturgy he so beautifully describes, which those of us here on earth participate in when we celebrate the New Covenant liturgy.

 

[Walter]

This is a perfect example of why if you walked into a church of antiquity, you would be a complete stranger. It is because the faith of the Christians of antiquity is not the faith you profess. It explains why there is even a thread asking if an altar is necessary. For the non-Catholic and non-Orthodox, such a question demonstrates you have no idea what you are even doing when you gather for your mock eucharistic services.

The liturgy is the central reservoir from which the religious paradigms and beliefs of the people were drawn. The same Greek verb translated as "ministering" is used for both the actions of the Jewish priests and the apostles who were "ministering to the Lord" in Acts 13:2. According to Acts, the apostles were worshipping in Jewish synagogues and the temple in Jerusalem.

. . . they continued, daily, to be of one accord in the temple and to break bread among the houses . . .Acts 2:46

Then Paul, taking the men on the next day, was purified with them, and he entered the temple, announcing the process of the days of purification, until an oblation would be offered on behalf of each one of them. Acts 21:26

. . . they arrived at Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, according to custom, entered to them. Acts 17:2

If Paul went into a Greek Church today he would hear chanting of the same Psalms in the same language that he heard both in Greek-speaking synagogues and in early Christian worship:

. . . be filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking among yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual canticles, singing and reciting psalms to the Lord in your hearts, giving thanks always for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God the Father. Eph 5:18-20


The liturgy that the Apostles offered was based on the Jewish liturgies. It is no accident that the same verb is used for the Jewish and Christian worship, which included the Eucharist. The Passover itself, a foreshadow of the Eucharist, was a liturgy, which is why the upper room was "Prepared". It followed a strict formula with chanting and Psalms and vestments, etc. This form of worship continues to this day in Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches.

A few other points:

Luke 1:23 speaks of a Liturgy (λειτουργίας).

Luke 1:23 "καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἐπλήσθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τῆς λειτουργίας αὐτοῦ, ἀπῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ."


Acts 13:2 speaks of liturgizing (λειτουργούντων).

Acts 13:2 "λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ Κυρίῳ καὶ νηστευόντων εἶπε τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον· ἀφορίσατε δή μοι τὸν Βαρνάβαν καὶ τὸν Σαῦλον εἰς τὸ ἔργον ὃ προσκέκλημαι αὐτούς."


Heb 8:2 declares Jesus to be the Holy Liturgist (λειτουργὸς).

Heb 8:2 "τῶν ἁγίων λειτουργὸς καὶ τῆς σκηνῆς τῆς ἀληθινῆς, ἣν ἔπηξεν ὁ Κύριος, καὶ οὐκ ἄνθρωπος."



And yes, the Revelation of St. John is most assuredly full of symbolism of the Old Covenant liturgy, which points to the realty which is the heavenly liturgy he so beautifully describes, which those of us here on earth participate in when we celebrate the New Covenant liturgy.

NAILED IT!!!

 

[AustinC]

This is a perfect example of why if you walked into a church of antiquity, you would be a complete stranger. It is because the faith of the Christians of antiquity is not the faith you profess. It explains why there is even a thread asking if an altar is necessary. For the non-Catholic and non-Orthodox, such a question demonstrates you have no idea what you are even doing when you gather for your mock eucharistic services.

The liturgy is the central reservoir from which the religious paradigms and beliefs of the people were drawn. The same Greek verb translated as "ministering" is used for both the actions of the Jewish priests and the apostles who were "ministering to the Lord" in Acts 13:2. According to Acts, the apostles were worshipping in Jewish synagogues and the temple in Jerusalem.

. . . they continued, daily, to be of one accord in the temple and to break bread among the houses . . .Acts 2:46

Then Paul, taking the men on the next day, was purified with them, and he entered the temple, announcing the process of the days of purification, until an oblation would be offered on behalf of each one of them. Acts 21:26

. . . they arrived at Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, according to custom, entered to them. Acts 17:2

If Paul went into a Greek Church today he would hear chanting of the same Psalms in the same language that he heard both in Greek-speaking synagogues and in early Christian worship:

. . . be filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking among yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual canticles, singing and reciting psalms to the Lord in your hearts, giving thanks always for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to God the Father. Eph 5:18-20


The liturgy that the Apostles offered was based on the Jewish liturgies. It is no accident that the same verb is used for the Jewish and Christian worship, which included the Eucharist. The Passover itself, a foreshadow of the Eucharist, was a liturgy, which is why the upper room was "Prepared". It followed a strict formula with chanting and Psalms and vestments, etc. This form of worship continues to this day in Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches.

A few other points:

Luke 1:23 speaks of a Liturgy (λειτουργίας).

Luke 1:23 "καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἐπλήσθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τῆς λειτουργίας αὐτοῦ, ἀπῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ."


Acts 13:2 speaks of liturgizing (λειτουργούντων).

Acts 13:2 "λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ Κυρίῳ καὶ νηστευόντων εἶπε τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον· ἀφορίσατε δή μοι τὸν Βαρνάβαν καὶ τὸν Σαῦλον εἰς τὸ ἔργον ὃ προσκέκλημαι αὐτούς."


Heb 8:2 declares Jesus to be the Holy Liturgist (λειτουργὸς).

Heb 8:2 "τῶν ἁγίων λειτουργὸς καὶ τῆς σκηνῆς τῆς ἀληθινῆς, ἣν ἔπηξεν ὁ Κύριος, καὶ οὐκ ἄνθρωπος."



And yes, the Revelation of St. John is most assuredly full of symbolism of the Old Covenant liturgy, which points to the realty which is the heavenly liturgy he so beautifully describes, which those of us here on earth participate in when we celebrate the New Covenant liturgy.

God did not write a liturgy for the church through the early church. He wrote His word through the writers of the Bible. The old covenant was finished on the cross. The new covenant was established at the cross and the Spirit gave us the Inheritance of children of God (Hebrews 9). Peter reminds us of this Inheritance in 1 Peter 1.
Hebrews informs us that Jesus is the High Priest who intercedes forever on our behalf. (There is no need for us to pray to the dead) We are told that we can boldly enter into the Holy of Holies and go to the throne of grace.

Our liturgy is God's Word, not human words. The pagan rituals, brought in to the churches should be cast into the sea, and the Apostles applaud the end of these pagan rituals. Like Israel, Rome has added terrible traditions that have nothing to do with God's Word and everything to do with pagan appropriation.
We whom God has written into his covenant and gave an Inheritance as his children are also the priesthood of believers. (1 Peter 2) We are the Levites who. God designated as the firstborn of Israel. We all share our Father's Word of reconciliation to a godless world. (2Corinthians 5)

Campion,you are following the false religion of Jereboam in the Northern Kingdom when he implemented worship not ordained by God. Your church has followed that path and rejected Reform.

 

[Campion]

God did not write a liturgy for the church through the early church. He wrote His word through the writers of the Bible.

The liturgy preceded the Scriptures. We know this because the Apostles were offering the Eucharist before many of the New Testament books books of the Bible were even written, let alone compiled. For example, St. Luke describes...

Acts 2:46: "...they continued, daily, to be of one accord in the temple and to break bread among the houses."

1 Cor 11:23: "...For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread..." Here St. Paul describes the Eucharistic sacrifice being offered in Corinth.

The old covenant was finished on the cross. The new covenant was established at the cross and the Spirit gave us the Inheritance of children of God (Hebrews 9). Peter reminds us of this Inheritance in 1 Peter 1.
Hebrews informs us that Jesus is the High Priest who intercedes forever on our behalf. (There is no need for us to pray to the dead) We are told that we can boldly enter into the Holy of Holies and go to the throne of grace.

The new covenant (testament) was established the evening before the Cross, on Holy Thursday in the Upper Room. Here is our Blessed Lord instituting it...

"And as ttey were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'" (Mt. 26:26-28)

"And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, 'Take, eat: this is my body.' And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, 'This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many'." (Mark 14:22-24)

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, 'This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.' Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.'" (Luke 22:19-20)

Here is St. Paul quoting our Blessed Lord, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, 'Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.' After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.'" (1 Cor 11:23-25)

Our liturgy is God's Word, not human words. The pagan rituals, brought in to the churches should be cast into the sea, and the Apostles applaud the end of these pagan rituals. Like Israel, Rome has added terrible traditions that have nothing to do with God's Word and everything to do with pagan appropriation.
We whom God has written into his covenant and gave an Inheritance as his children are also the priesthood of believers. (1 Peter 2) We are the Levites who. God designated as the firstborn of Israel. We all share our Father's Word of reconciliation to a godless world. (2Corinthians 5)

Campion,you are following the false religion of Jereboam in the Northern Kingdom when he implemented worship not ordained by God. Your church has followed that path and rejected Reform.

Your liturgy is not God's word. You may use and incorporate God's within your liturgy, but you have a liturgy, whether you admit it or not and it is not just "God's word." The difference is your liturgy is something entirely novel and made up. This again is why if you took a time machine and transported back to the Church of antiquity, what you would experience would be completely alien and foreign to you. You would be a stranger to it because the faith of the ancient Christians is not the faith you profess. It is the reason why you would even have to ask why a church has an altar in it. The churches of ancient Antioch, Jerusalem, Athens, Alexandria and Rome were built to celebrate the Christian liturgy. Their faith is not your faith.

 

[Walter]

Coptic Christians date back to around 50 AD, when the Apostle Mark visited Egypt. Mark and is regarded as their founder. This makes it one of the earliest Christian groups outside the Holy Land. Their churches have always had altars and they have always celebrated Holy Communion (the Eucharist) upon them. Their faith and worship looks NOTHING like a Baptist church. Do you think Mark bumped his head and led them into some type of pagan practice?

 

[AustinC]

Coptic Christians date back to around 50 AD, when the Apostle Mark visited Egypt. Mark and is regarded as their founder. This makes it one of the earliest Christian groups outside the Holy Land. Their churches have always had altars and they have always celebrated Holy Communion (the Eucharist) upon them. Their faith and worship looks NOTHING like a Baptist church. Do you think Mark bumped his head and led them into some type of pagan practice?

They are connected to the Orthodox church which claims its origin from the church at Antioch. Their iconography and idolatry are similar and they hold the same pagan corruptions that came in from the cultures around. Such cultural appropriation is always a blight on the church as it loses its first love.

 

[AustinC]

The liturgy preceded the Scriptures. We know this because the Apostles were offering the Eucharist before many of the New Testament books books of the Bible were even written, let alone compiled. For example, St. Luke describes...

Acts 2:46: "...they continued, daily, to be of one accord in the temple and to break bread among the houses."

1 Cor 11:23: "...For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread..." Here St. Paul describes the Eucharistic sacrifice being offered in Corinth.




The new covenant (testament) was established the evening before the Cross, on Holy Thursday in the Upper Room. Here is our Blessed Lord instituting it...

"And as ttey were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'" (Mt. 26:26-28)

"And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, 'Take, eat: this is my body.' And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, 'This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many'." (Mark 14:22-24)

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, 'This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.' Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.'" (Luke 22:19-20)

Here is St. Paul quoting our Blessed Lord, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, 'Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.' After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.'" (1 Cor 11:23-25)




Your liturgy is not God's word. You may use and incorporate God's within your liturgy, but you have a liturgy, whether you admit it or not and it is not just "God's word." The difference is your liturgy is something entirely novel and made up. This again is why if you took a time machine and transported back to the Church of antiquity, what you would experience would be completely alien and foreign to you. You would be a stranger to it because the faith of the ancient Christians is not the faith you profess. It is the reason why you would even have to ask why a church has an altar in it. The churches of ancient Antioch, Jerusalem, Athens, Alexandria and Rome were built to celebrate the Christian liturgy. Their faith is not your faith.

The faith of your traditions was not the faith of the Apostles and God's word. So, you are correct, the teaching of your traditions is not the faith of any Christian.

 

[Alcott]

We set the communion elements on it. It is a table that says "This do in remembrance of me.".

Do you find fault with every tradition of the church?

Every one that's not in Scripture. We see no examples of Christians using altars in Scripture.

What else do we not see?

Electric lights, air conditioning, central heating
Carpeting
Microphones/amplified sound
Pianos, organs, any other instruments
Choir and choir loft
Baptistry
Individual cups and hunks of crackers
Perhaps above all, do we see church buildings in scripture?
.
.
.
could easily go on.

 

[tyndale1946]

We set the communion elements on it. It is a table that says "This do in remembrance of me.".

Do you find fault with every tradition of the church?



What else do we not see?

Electric lights, air conditioning, central heating
Carpeting
Microphones/amplified sound
Pianos, organs, any other instruments
Choir and choir loft
Baptistry
Individual cups and hunks of crackers
Perhaps above all, do we see church buildings in scripture?
.
.
.
could easily go on.

Hey don't knock robycop3's church they probably use hand fans and candles... Brother Glen

 

[robycop3]

We set the communion elements on it. It is a table that says "This do in remembrance of me.".

Do you find fault with every tradition of the church?



What else do we not see?

Electric lights, air conditioning, central heating
Carpeting
Microphones/amplified sound
Pianos, organs, any other instruments
Choir and choir loft
Baptistry
Individual cups and hunks of crackers
Perhaps above all, do we see church buildings in scripture?
.
.
.
could easily go on.

Hadn't been invented before Scripture was completed; altars had.

 

[Alcott]

Hadn't been invented before Scripture was completed; altars had.

Just making sure here: if it was invented after scripture was completed, then it's alright for Christian worship. Correct?

And buildings were certainly 'invented' before the completion of scripture. So is it still right to have buildings only for church, even though scripture does not say to have them?

 

[Salty]

Just making sure here: if it was invented after scripture was completed, then it's alright for Christian worship. Correct?

And buildings were certainly 'invented' before the completion of scripture. So is it still right to have buildings only for church, even though scripture does not say to have them?

True - unless Scripture prohibits them

 

[Centrist]

Yes, it's where we sacrifice our kids...(tic)

 

[Alcott]

True - unless Scripture prohibits them

Very well. And scripture does not prohibit having an altar.