doesn't the fall of Adam show that free will by itself cannot provide salvation?

[Winman]

That just as the names cannot be blotted out of the book of life , as Jesus state dthat he will keep those who are his own!

in same fashion, NOT stating IF as can sin, but that he cannot!

Well, you assume everyone is born spiritually dead, and I do not. I believe everyone is born spiritually alive until they understand right from wrong and willingly and knowingly choose to sin. Those who never repent and trust in Jesus are blotted out.

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Your view makes God out to be a liar, because God said he will blot names out of his book.

My view does not make God a liar at all.

 

[steaver]

This debate is whether Jesus truly came in the flesh and was completely human. If so, then he could have sinned.

It has nothing to do with whether Jesus came in the flesh, no one here says that he did not. You are missing the fact that Jesus was a bit more than "completely human", Adam was "completely human", Jesus Christ was completely human AND completely God, something Adam was lacking. Jesus, being completely God, could not sin, could not lie.

All I can say is what the scriptures say......

Yes, I believe Jacob did understand he prevailed, and he demanded that God bless him before he would agree to let God go. And that is exactly what God did.

Nowhere does it say Jacob demanded God bless him. So are you really just saying what the scripture says?

He is not interested in his glory only as many here falsely teach.

I honestly believe you have missed a whole lotta scripture brother. This entire plan of God's we are in is all about Jesus Christ being glorified by His creation. Praise Him! Tis why Adam was set up to fail.

 

[Winman]

It has nothing to do with whether Jesus came in the flesh, no one here says that he did not. You are missing the fact that Jesus was a bit more than "completely human", Adam was "completely human", Jesus Christ was completely human AND completely God, something Adam was lacking. Jesus, being completely God, could not sin, could not lie.

It certainly does have to do with whether Jesus came in the flesh, and the scriptures warn of those who deny this.

Nowhere does it say Jacob demanded God bless him. So are you really just saying what the scripture says?

Sure it does;

Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

God told Jacob to "Let me go", but Jacob refused unless God blessed him.

I honestly believe you have missed a whole lotta scripture brother. This entire plan of God's we are in is all about Jesus Christ being glorified by His creation. Praise Him! Tis why Adam was set up to fail.

And I believe it is you that is missing what scripture says. Whether you like it or not, scripture says Jacob wrestled with God and that Jacob prevailed.

As I showed earlier, scripture showed that God spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. But later in this same chapter Moses requests to see God's "glory". God tells Moses that no man can see his face and live.

So obviously when God appeared to men he limited himself, he did not appear in his glory, otherwise it would have killed those men. In this limited state, God could be beaten in a wrestling match, men could look God in the face and not die. And I also believe in this state Jesus could sin, otherwise tempting him is nonsensical and meaningless.

 

[Reformed]

Supposing someone does not sin in their lives. Maybe someone born in a comatose state, and never even becomes conscience. Would that merit their being saved? I don't believe so.

I believe that they would need grace and Christ's provision just as much as you and I do. Don't you?

Of course.

We are sinners for two reasons. 1. We sin. 2. We are born in a state of sin. I like how the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith explains the scenario you wrote about:

10.3 Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

 

[Winman]

Of course.

We are sinners for two reasons. 1. We sin. 2. We are born in a state of sin. I like how the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith explains the scenario you wrote about:

Men are not born in a state of sin. Paul himself said until he learned the law he was spiritually alive.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

In verse 7 Paul is clearly describing when he learned the law as all young Jewish men do. He said he would have not known lust except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Knowing the law made Paul accountable. Without the law, sin has no power and is dead.

Then in verse 9 Paul clearly says he was ALIVE once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. This is clearly showing that when Paul learned the law he became accountable and was convicted as a sinner. This is when he spiritually died.

Paul thought that obeying the law would lead to life, but discovered that knowing the law leads to death, as sin used the law to convict him and he died.

The scriptures absolutely do not show that men are born dead in sin. Men die when they know right from wrong and willfully sin.

 

[steaver]

Sure it does;

Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

I see nowhere in the scripture verse provided that states Jacob demanded God bless him. Look again at the passage and see if Jacob was knowingly speaking to God.

 

[Winman]

I see nowhere in the scripture verse provided that states Jacob demanded God bless him. Look again at the passage and see if Jacob was knowingly speaking to God.

I think it is plain as day that Jacob is saying I will not let you go unless you bless me. That is demanding a blessing. And who else could Jacob be speaking to? The story begins telling us he was left alone and wrestled with a man, who turns out to be God.

You just don't like the story because it doesn't agree with your personal concept of God.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course.

We are sinners for two reasons. 1. We sin. 2. We are born in a state of sin. I like how the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith explains the scenario you wrote about:

So God has indeed a 'special Elections' towards infants and mentally challenged persons?

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, you assume everyone is born spiritually dead, and I do not. I believe everyone is born spiritually alive until they understand right from wrong and willingly and knowingly choose to sin. Those who never repent and trust in Jesus are blotted out.

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Your view makes God out to be a liar, because God said he will blot names out of his book.

My view does not make God a liar at all.

That was NOT the lamb's book of life, as all those written in there ahve been eternally secured, but that was the book of those alive in Isreal, referred to physical death!

 

[Yeshua1]

It certainly does have to do with whether Jesus came in the flesh, and the scriptures warn of those who deny this.



Sure it does;

Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

God told Jacob to "Let me go", but Jacob refused unless God blessed him.




And I believe it is you that is missing what scripture says. Whether you like it or not, scripture says Jacob wrestled with God and that Jacob prevailed.

As I showed earlier, scripture showed that God spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. But later in this same chapter Moses requests to see God's "glory". God tells Moses that no man can see his face and live.

So obviously when God appeared to men he limited himself, he did not appear in his glory, otherwise it would have killed those men. In this limited state, God could be beaten in a wrestling match, men could look God in the face and not die. And I also believe in this state Jesus could sin, otherwise tempting him is nonsensical and meaningless.

God cannot be bested by anyone unlessed he permitted that, as in Jesus allowing us to kill Him off, and jesus was God incarnate, NOT like you and me as simple human!

 

[Winman]

That was NOT the lamb's book of life, as all those written in there ahve been eternally secured, but that was the book of those alive in Isreal, referred to physical death!

What? Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up? Nobody agrees with you, including Calvinist commentators.

Verse 33
And the Lord said unto Moses,.... In answer to his request:

whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book; not that anyone that is really in the book of life is ever blotted out, or that anyone predestinated or ordained to eternal life ever perish: but some persons may think themselves, and they may seem to be written in that book, or to be among the number of God's elect, but are not, and turn out obstinate impenitent sinners, and live and die in impenitence and unbelief; when it will appear that their names were never written in it, which, is the same thing as to be blotted out of it, see Psalm 69:28. Now by this answer the Lord does not absolutely refuse the request of Moses with respect to the people, though he does with regard to himself, and the blotting his name out of his book; and it is plain, by what follows, he meant to show mercy to the people, since he bids Moses go and lead them on towards Canaan, and promises an angel to go before them; though he reserves to himself a liberty to chastise this people for this sin, as he should have opportunity, along with others.

Now, I disagree with Gill, I believe everyone's name is originally in the book of life, those who never trust Christ are later blotted out, but Gill and every other commentator agrees this is the book of life being spoken of here.

Would you like to provide the scripture that supports this book of Israel you speak of?

 

[Winman]

God cannot be bested by anyone unlessed he permitted that, as in Jesus allowing us to kill Him off, and jesus was God incarnate, NOT like you and me as simple human!

Whether you like it or not, when God appeared as a man and wrestled Jacob the scriptures say that Jacob prevailed. You either believe what the word of God plainly says or you do not.

 

[Winman]

So God has indeed a 'special Elections' towards infants and mentally challenged persons?

One false doctrine leads to another. The scriptures are clear that babies have not committed sin, (Rom 9:11).

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau had done no evil while they were alive in Rebecca's womb. This refutes that Jacob and Esau participated in Adam's sin in the garden.

Scripture is also clear that the son shall not bear the sin of his father or vice versa;

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Because people deny these plain scriptures and teach false doctrine that all babies are born sinners, they must create more false doctrine teaching that babies and the mentally challenged are saved without faith in Christ. So they invent a false form of salvation never shown in scripture. When you start with error, you must create more error to cover it up. It never ends.

 

[Reformed]

So God has indeed a 'special Elections' towards infants and mentally challenged persons?

Special? No. I think God has elected a people to be His own, period.

 

[Yeshua1]

What? Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up? Nobody agrees with you, including Calvinist commentators.



Now, I disagree with Gill, I believe everyone's name is originally in the book of life, those who never trust Christ are later blotted out, but Gill and every other commentator agrees this is the book of life being spoken of here.

Would you like to provide the scripture that supports this book of Israel you speak of?

So ALL sinners are written down in lamb book of life, them they themselves take their name out of there?

 

[Yeshua1]

Special? No. I think God has elected a people to be His own, period.

Good point!

 

[Yeshua1]

Whether you like it or not, when God appeared as a man and wrestled Jacob the scriptures say that Jacob prevailed. You either believe what the word of God plainly says or you do not.

Due to God 'throwing' the fight!

Same way, Jesus ONLY way to have been killed was to have Him allow that!

 

[Yeshua1]

One false doctrine leads to another. The scriptures are clear that babies have not committed sin, (Rom 9:11).

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau had done no evil while they were alive in Rebecca's womb. This refutes that Jacob and Esau participated in Adam's sin in the garden.

Scripture is also clear that the son shall not bear the sin of his father or vice versa;

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Because people deny these plain scriptures and teach false doctrine that all babies are born sinners, they must create more false doctrine teaching that babies and the mentally challenged are saved without faith in Christ. So they invent a false form of salvation never shown in scripture. When you start with error, you must create more error to cover it up. It never ends.

We are born as sinners at birth, so God chose to have jacob as child of the promise, not first born should have been!

 

[steaver]

I think it is plain as day that Jacob is saying I will not let you go unless you bless me. That is demanding a blessing. And who else could Jacob be speaking to? The story begins telling us he was left alone and wrestled with a man, who turns out to be God.

You just don't like the story because it doesn't agree with your personal concept of God.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

Brother, I perceive you have a passion for following Jesus and the study of God's Word. I will assume that your goal is to be faithful to the correct interpretations and applications of this precious Word God has entrusted to us His children, that we may study it and rightly divide it, that we will not be found guilty of sticking with a misapplication or misinterpretation and teaching error to others. Personally, my goal is to rightly divide and not to be right. In my past, have been guilty of misusing a passage of scripture just because seemed to sound like it proved a point I was trying to make. Over the years I have learned to abandon those passages that I once misapplied so I would be faithful to God and His message, being very careful not to take anything out of context just to make my pov look better.

I don't know if you teach any bible studies or Sunday School classes, but I believe you are here to teach others what you believe the scriptures teach, correct? I would hope that you are also here to test your own points of view and carefully consider what others point out as well. And if after some careful consideration and study you find that a passage you have been using really shouldn't be used for a go to on a subject then you would faithfully abandon that particular passage as to honor God and His Word, not that you must abandon your whole pov, but make sure you are only using those passages which actually do speak to the subject being discussed. That's just being fair and honest to God first and foremost, I think you would agree with me that we should take seriously the way we apply passages in God's Word.

Now if you can imagine yourself as a SS teacher (maybe you are, idk) and one of your students challenges you on an application of scripture you are using on a subject and the person points out that they think that particular passage doesn't really apply to the topic. Would your answer back to them be "You just don't like the story because it doesn't agree with your personal concept of God." ? Personally, I find it insulting. I don't think we need to make comments such as these in our debates, we all should just make our arguments from scripture and be careful not to do any tweeking or make the passages say anything more than what is written.

Now, back to Jacob, just do a search on "blessing" and you will find a few dozen passages of scripture where people are blessing people. The scripture states Jacob was wrestling with a man and when Jacob prevailed over the man he demanded the man give him a blessing before he let the man go (noticed I said man bc that is what was in Jacob's mind for he did not yet know it was God). Another factor that teaches us Jacob did not know it was God is bc Jacob asked the man his name. Only after the conversation AFTER the match was over did Jacob realize he came face to face with God and did not die.

So, Jacob did not demand God give him a blessing. To say this is not being true to the passage and is not rightly dividing the word of truth which must be our first priority, we cannot misuse passages, we will get challenged and we will not have the Holy Spirit's power in using those passages if they are not used as intended by God.

Blessings to you brother!

 

[Winman]

Brother, I perceive you have a passion for following Jesus and the study of God's Word. I will assume that your goal is to be faithful to the correct interpretations and applications of this precious Word God has entrusted to us His children, that we may study it and rightly divide it, that we will not be found guilty of sticking with a misapplication or misinterpretation and teaching error to others. Personally, my goal is to rightly divide and not to be right. In my past, have been guilty of misusing a passage of scripture just because seemed to sound like it proved a point I was trying to make. Over the years I have learned to abandon those passages that I once misapplied so I would be faithful to God and His message, being very careful not to take anything out of context just to make my pov look better.

I don't know if you teach any bible studies or Sunday School classes, but I believe you are here to teach others what you believe the scriptures teach, correct? I would hope that you are also here to test your own points of view and carefully consider what others point out as well. And if after some careful consideration and study you find that a passage you have been using really shouldn't be used for a go to on a subject then you would faithfully abandon that particular passage as to honor God and His Word, not that you must abandon your whole pov, but make sure you are only using those passages which actually do speak to the subject being discussed. That's just being fair and honest to God first and foremost, I think you would agree with me that we should take seriously the way we apply passages in God's Word.

Now if you can imagine yourself as a SS teacher (maybe you are, idk) and one of your students challenges you on an application of scripture you are using on a subject and the person points out that they think that particular passage doesn't really apply to the topic. Would your answer back to them be "You just don't like the story because it doesn't agree with your personal concept of God." ? Personally, I find it insulting. I don't think we need to make comments such as these in our debates, we all should just make our arguments from scripture and be careful not to do any tweeking or make the passages say anything more than what is written.

Now, back to Jacob, just do a search on "blessing" and you will find a few dozen passages of scripture where people are blessing people. The scripture states Jacob was wrestling with a man and when Jacob prevailed over the man he demanded the man give him a blessing before he let the man go (noticed I said man bc that is what was in Jacob's mind for he did not yet know it was God). Another factor that teaches us Jacob did not know it was God is bc Jacob asked the man his name. Only after the conversation AFTER the match was over did Jacob realize he came face to face with God and did not die.

So, Jacob did not demand God give him a blessing. To say this is not being true to the passage and is not rightly dividing the word of truth which must be our first priority, we cannot misuse passages, we will get challenged and we will not have the Holy Spirit's power in using those passages if they are not used as intended by God.

Blessings to you brother!

Jacob did know he was wrestling with God.

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jacob knew he was wrestling God, he said he had seen God "face to face" and yet his life was preserved. He seems to be slightly surprised that he survived this event.

And Jacob absolutely demanded that God bless him before he would let go.

This is not a difficult passage, a child could easily follow this story. I read this story as a child and had no trouble understanding it.

And if I insulted you I am sorry. You do not like the idea that Jacob prevailed over God in this wrestling match, but that is exactly what this passage says. I don't know what to tell you, take it up with God, I didn't write the scriptures.