Dominion vs determinism

[Ben1445]

Defined

DOMINION, n. [L. See Dominant.]

1. Sovereign or supreme authority; the power of governing and controlling.

The dominion of the Most High is an everlasting dominion. Dan 4.

2. Power to direct, control, use and dispose of at pleasure; right of possession and use without being accountable; as the private dominion of individuals.

3. Territory under a government; region; country; district governed, or within the limits of the authority of a prince or state; as the British dominions.

4. Government; right of governing. Jamaica is under the dominion of Great Britain.

5. Predominance; ascendant.

6. An order of angels.

Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers. Col 1.

7. Persons governed.

Judah was his sanctuary; Israel his dominion. Psa 114.

 

[Ben1445]

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psalms 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:
but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

 

[Ben1445]

The earth is a place that has been given to the will of mankind to be governed and dominated by.
God certainly has power in this world and exercises it. But it is an unavoidable truth that God has given this realm of the terrestrial to govern and be responsible. To God we answer, each of us individually for our dominion. We will answer for ourselves, our thoughts, our hearts, and for the material that God has given us stewardship of.

Dominion must have real meaning. We are no puppets. We have been made masters and lords in this world. We answer to the Lord of lords. No one who is a mere puppet governor can be said to have dominion.
The concept of determinism is contrary to the reality of dominion, a responsibility that God has placed on mankind.

 

[Psalty]

The problem with Calvinists is they cant imagine a God who would desire love and allow them to operate a will in order to chose to love Him.

Instead, they believe that He would never allow a human of His to make their own choice, but would rather decide everything, and if not, and is not exercising causal choice on them, He is no Longer sovereign.

 

[KenH]

The problem with Calvinists is they cant imagine a God who would desire love

The God of the Bible is not needy. The god of your imagination apparently is, like some lovesick teenager.

and allow them to operate a will in order to chose to love Him.

If left up to man's will in his fallen state, he would never ever choose to love God. Thus, God makes His elect willing, doing for them what they can never ever do for themselves.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power.

 

[Psalty]

The God of the Bible is not needy. The god of your imagination apparently is, like some lovesick teenager.

The calvinist god is the one who is so needy that he cannot bear to have a creation where he does not control every micro-action!

If left up to man's will in his fallen state, he would never ever choose to love God. Thus, God makes His elect willing, doing for them what they can never ever do for themselves.

Through the power of the Gospel man can choose to respond to God’s grace. This is the means He has chosen. (Also, no reference or scripture to back up your man made tradition. What is the single best reference that you have?)

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power.

Amen

 

[Deacon]

Theology dilemma: If the desire to love God is given to a person by an act of God's sovereignty, is it really love?

We view genuine love as a voluntary act rather than something pre-determined by a forced congruence: they only love God because that's the way God made them.

Rob

 

[SovereignGrace]

Theology dilemma: If the desire to love God is given to a person by an act of God's sovereignty, is it really love?

We view genuine love as a voluntary act rather than something pre-determined by a forced congruence: they only love God because that's the way God made them.

Rob

Okay, let me turn this back around at you. Harken back to the days your children were kids. One of your five year olds gets away from you and ends up in the road. Here comes an 18 wheeler barreling towards them. You tell your child to get out of the road, and in rebellion yells "No!" Do you stand there on the shoulder of the road and plead with them to get out of the road or do you go out and forcefully yank them out of harm's way? If you do that, then you are a cruel parent, as you overrode their will, their desire to play on the road, in spite all the pleadings for them to run to you. If God does that, He is cruel, right?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Theology dilemma: If the desire to love God is given to a person by an act of God's sovereignty, is it really love?

We view genuine love as a voluntary act rather than something pre-determined by a forced congruence: they only love God because that's the way God made them.

Rob

Its not that simple, my friend. The person who is outside of Christ, does not love God, and can in no capacity, love Him. Why? Here's but one (of many) scriptural proofs they cannot. "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."[John 14:15 NASB 1995] The lost have automatically broken the very first commandment, thereby nullifying any notion they can truly love Him. Also, in the new birth, a new life, new ears, new eyes, and a new heart are given to them, and due to these acts of God upon them, they in turn love Him. The new birth gives them a love for Him they did not possess before.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Theology dilemma: If the desire to love God is given to a person by an act of God's sovereignty, is it really love?

We view genuine love as a voluntary act rather than something pre-determined by a forced congruence: they only love God because that's the way God made them.

Rob

Let us examine together another place that has a few more vss to see why the reformed ppl teach what they do in regards to the new birth being something that God does unilaterally and does not depend upon us to exercise our (allegedly) free wills:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:5-9 NASB 1995]

Here we see the two types of ppl in the world, the saved and the lost, the regenerate and the unregenerate. The unregenerate are those who live according to the flesh, that is what they desire, to fulfill the desires of the flesh. I am pretty sure we are in agreement up to here at least, or so I hope. These who live according to the desires of the flesh, they also have their minds upon the things of the flesh. That is their nature, and there is no way, in and of themselves, they can change these desires, if left to their fallen in Adam nature. There has to be a supernatural act of God to change this. This is why understanding the new birth has to precede any of this becoming a reality is of utmost importance.

Those who are lost, those who are unregenerate, cannot please God, because "And without faith it is impossible to please Him,"[Hebrews 11:6a NASB 1995] because only the regenerate possess faith, per Galatians 5:22. Man, in his fallen state, cannot raise himself up from that fallen condition. They can no more love God than Satan does. They cannot change their nature either. “Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil."[ Jeremiah 13:23] As easy as the Ethiopian and leopard can do that, its just as easy for the lost, the unregenerate can love God.

 

[Deacon]

Okay, let me turn this back around at you. Harken back to the days your children were kids. One of your five year olds gets away from you and ends up in the road. Here comes an 18 wheeler barreling towards them. You tell your child to get out of the road, and in rebellion yells "No!" Do you stand there on the shoulder of the road and plead with them to get out of the road or do you go out and forcefully yank them out of harm's way? If you do that, then you are a cruel parent, as you overrode their will, their desire to play on the road, in spite all the pleadings for them to run to you. If God does that, He is cruel, right?

As I stated, there's a dilemma, a tension; a balance between dominion and determinism.

We cannot love God, without him first revealing himself to us.
Simply stated, 'We love because he first loved us' (1 John 4:19).
God's presence, his 'wonderful and mighty works' which he abundantly displays, certainly demonstrate his sovereignty.
My love for God is a response to his showing love to me.

Rob

 

[SovereignGrace]

As I stated, there's a dilemma, a tension; a balance between dominion and determinism.

We cannot love God, without him first revealing himself to us.
Simply stated, 'We love because he first loved us' (1 John 4:19).
God's presence, his 'wonderful and mighty works' which he abundantly displays, certainly demonstrate his sovereignty.
My love for God is a response to his showing love to me.

Rob

And I can give a hearty amen to this. My responses were a response more specifically to this: "We view genuine love as a voluntary act rather than something pre-determined by a forced congruence: they only love God because that's the way God made them."

And this voluntary act that ppl have is because they have been born of God, and that is why the only way to love God is by being born again. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.[1 John 4:7]

 

[Deacon]

So the question stands: Does God control our response?

Scripture is somewhat vague: Sometimes God chooses the person and divinely directs a response, I think of the heathen, Abram (Joshua 24:2).
Other times the response seems to flow from reasoning within the person: Rahab (Joshua 2:11).
Why would Paul use reasoning to persuade the Greek philosophers in Corinth?
Why are Christians directed to evangelize?

God certainly has his hand in the process.
The notion that God completes the process (new birth) is undisputed.

Rob

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Luke 14::15-24 (excerpts). "A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, 'Come, for all things are now ready.' But they all with one accord began to make excuses.........
......... So that servant came and reported these things to his master.......... Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled .....'

 

[Ben1445]

Okay, let me turn this back around at you. Harken back to the days your children were kids. One of your five year olds gets away from you and ends up in the road. Here comes an 18 wheeler barreling towards them. You tell your child to get out of the road, and in rebellion yells "No!" Do you stand there on the shoulder of the road and plead with them to get out of the road or do you go out and forcefully yank them out of harm's way? If you do that, then you are a cruel parent, as you overrode their will, their desire to play on the road, in spite all the pleadings for them to run to you. If God does that, He is cruel, right?

No. God is not cruel. We all die because of our sin.
And God didn’t just stand there. He gave Himself for us.

 

[Silverhair]

Luke 14::15-24 (excerpts). "A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, 'Come, for all things are now ready.' But they all with one accord began to make excuses.........
......... So that servant came and reported these things to his master.......... Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled .....'

Martin are you understanding "compel" {Luk 14:23} as meaning to force/drag them or as to draw them by powerful and loving persuasion?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin are you understanding "compel" {Luk 14:23} as meaning to force/drag them or as to draw them by powerful and loving persuasion?

I was just quoting Scripture. The Greek word used for 'compel' there is anagkazo. It is also found in Matt. 14:22; Mark 6:45; Acts 26:11; 28:19; 2 Cor. 12:11; Gal. 2:3, 14; 6:12. Check it out. I don't think anyone 'compelled' or 'constrained' by the Lord is going to refuse. But Jeremiah 31:3 might also be helpful.
It's called 'irresistible calling.'

 

[Silverhair]

I was just quoting Scripture. The Greek word used for 'compel' there is anagkazo. It is also found in Matt. 14:22; Mark 6:45; Acts 26:11; 28:19; 2 Cor. 12:11; Gal. 2:3, 14; 6:12. Check it out. I don't think anyone 'compelled' or 'constrained' by the Lord is going to refuse. But Jeremiah 31:3 might also be helpful.
It's called 'irresistible calling.'

As you should know, but seem to ignore, we have to look at the context in which the word is found.

When looking at 'compel' anagkazo in Luk 14:23 we find "it simply means that utmost zeal and moral urgency should be used by Christians to induce sinners to enter the Kingdom of God." ISBE They are not forced to believe as you are suggesting by your deflecting to other verses.

But I do note that you did not answer my question.
"are you understanding "compel" {Luk 14:23} as meaning to force/drag them or as to draw them by powerful and loving persuasion?"

Surely you can answer that question without trying to deflect.

I have to conclude from your use of "It's called 'irresistible calling." that you think that if one is called then then they will have to respond in faith.

Do you not believe Jesus what He says in Joh 12:32 "... if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" Are all men saved Martin? Or are you going to tell me ALL only means some?

 

[KenH]

We view genuine love as a voluntary act

It is. Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of the Thy power.

"Shall be", not "might be". "Willing", not "reluctant".

Why is the sentence so strongly declarative? Because it concerns the power of God!

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[SovereignGrace]

No. God is not cruel. We all die because of our sin.
And God didn’t just stand there. He gave Himself for us.

But that still doesn’t answer the questions in that scenario. Christ didn’t die to make us savable, but to save us, per Matthew 1:21.