Dominion vs determinism

[KenH]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,...

Those who believe are God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Those who trust and believe and are sealed are God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The world God loved and gave His Son for, and who believe in Him, and have eternal life, is the world of both Jews and Gentiles, God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The world that is saved through Him is the world of both Jews and Gentiles, God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began, who He gave to His Son to be their Surety, and to have their sins imputed(charged, credited) to Him, for which He paid their total sin debt, and to have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed(charged, credited) to them, and to have them come under the hearing of the gospel during their lifetime, and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and given the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which they had previously trusted.

 

[KenH]

Paul is writing to carnal Christians not the unsaved.

Everyone in the church at Corinth was not a "carnal" Christian. And, even if they were, the natural man referred to in 2 Corinthians 2:14 is anyone whose heart God has not opened to understand the gospel of Christ; an example, being Lydia: And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (Acts 16:14)

 

[Ben1445]

I do think an unsaved person has to exercise free will faith in Christ when they hear the gospel and faith is not works. But does the Holy Spirit do something in the person’s soul to trigger or encourage that act of trusting in Jesus? I see that as likely.

As in the case of before the flood,

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Of course the Calvinist position is that there is no contest, no striving done on the part of God. Who can resist Him?

The Bible is full of examples.

 

[Ben1445]

Those who believe are God's elect, chosen by Him before the world began.

That is what you say. That is not what the verse says.

 

[KenH]

What I get from your comments is that man is just a puppet that God controls.

I disagree with your characterization, but just let me say that I would much rather be God's puppet and spend eternity with Him, than to have to rely on a free will (which is fallen and not really free, at all) and spend eternity in Hell.

 

[Ben1445]

I am not sure what the problem is, and I apologize for ruffling your feathers, but is this what you wanted me to quote:



If so, then it really doesn't change my answer in my post #81 above, as the sentence I was responding to is "And some of salvation is dependent upon us." Thus my answer according to the Bible is:

"If it is, then you, me, and every one else is doomed."

But if including those extra three sentences in the quote smooths your feathers, well, then, okie dokie.

I appreciate your putting the context back into the conversation.

 

[Ben1445]

Everyone in the church at Corinth was not a "carnal" Christian. And, even if they were, the natural man referred to in 2 Corinthians 2:14 is anyone whose heart God has not opened to understand the gospel of Christ; an example, being Lydia: And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. (Acts 16:14)

You are muddling context again. Lydia was not at Corinth. She is not a good example of what Paul was referring to in Corinth. Your verse picking is all over the place. Did you study at the watchtower?

 

[Ben1445]

I disagree with your characterization, but just let me say that I would much rather be God's puppet and spend eternity with Him, than to have to rely on a free will (which is fallen and not really free, at all) and spend eternity in Hell.

Are you sure you are elect to salvation?
What if you are elect to damnation?

 

[KenH]

For those who think that Christ died for every single human being, but in doing so, He did not actually save every single human being for whom He died, I plead with you to consider the horrible implication that comes with your belief in that idea - you are saying that God is just like fallen mankind, that He fails to accomplish something that He purposes to do.

Christ died to actually save those for whom He died; Christ did not die to merely make every human being salvable.

The following is an excerpt from an article written by Curtis A. Pugh, entitled, "Is God a Failure? The Bible Reveals God is Not a Failure":

' Without considering the consequences of such a system of belief, most professing Christians today have adopted a theology which makes God a failure! Historically, this system was first taught by Thomas Aquinas among the Catholics and is known as Thomism. Later, among some Protestants these ideas were popularized by James Arminius and others. Today they are known by the term Arminianism (not to be confused with Armenia). This free will system of doctrine is the tie that binds Catholicism and Protestantism together -- and in our day a host of nominal Baptists who also have fallen prey to it.

By carelessness in Bible study on the part of many -- and evident wresting of the Scriptures on the part of some -- many professing Christians now claim to worship a god who is a failure! Often these people slander the Bible by saying it contains two contradictory lines of teaching which cannot be reconciled. They may claim to believe in a sovereign God, but at the same time think mankind has a "free will" by which he can resist God and hinder His working. Thus, they take the Thomist/Arminian view and promote free-willism. (Nowhere does the Bible teach that man's will is free from his depraved nature!)

This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp. He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people). The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]. '

- rest of article at Is God a Failure?

 

[KenH]

You are muddling context again. Lydia was not at Corinth. She is not a good example of what Paul was referring to in Corinth. Your verse picking is all over the place. Did you study at the watchtower?

I am not sure what your reference to "watchtower" is? Jehovah's Witnesses or something like that?

I was raised in the Pelagianism of the Church of Christ until I was 43 years old, when God delivered me from that, and then, by His grace, He brought me under that hearing of the gospel of Christ when I was 65 years old at Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, and opened my heart to understand the gospel of Christ and regenerated me and gave me the gift of faith in Christ's finished work and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which I had been trusting.

I didn't say that Lydia was at Corinth. Where Lydia was makes no difference to the Biblical point I was making.

Yes, Lydia is a good example as to what Paul was referring to in the "natural man." The natural man is a person whose heart God has not opened to attend to understanding the gospel of Christ, and until God opens the heart of His elect people, whom He chose before the world began, they are not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of faith in Christ and His finished work and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which they formerly trusted.

Obviously, Lydia had been chosen by God as one of His elect, He brought her under the hearing of the gospel of Christ, the Holy Spirit regenerated her, and she was given the gift of saving faith and the gift of repentance of dead works.

 

[Ben1445]

For those who think that Christ died for every single human being, but in doing so, He did not actually save every single human being for whom He died, I plead with you to consider the horrible implication that comes with your belief in that idea - you are saying that God is just like fallen mankind, that He fails to accomplish something that He purposes to do.

Providing for all (provisionism) is not a failure if that is what Jesus came to do.
The failure is not on God but on the sinners who reject Him. I ask you to consider the implications of what you say.

Christ died to actually save those for whom He died; Christ did not die to merely make every human being salvable.

And still Jesus says that He would have gathered and they would not.

And in the Psalms, they limited the Holy One.

Consider the implications of what Scripture says. It shreds your doctrine of determinism.
It in no way affects God’s ability to have the last say or to accomplish His will in spite of our own actions.

The following is an excerpt from an article written by Curtis A. Pugh, entitled, "Is God a Failure? The Bible Reveals God is Not a Failure":

' Without considering the consequences of such a system of belief, most professing Christians today have adopted a theology which makes God a failure! Historically, this system was first taught by Thomas Aquinas among the Catholics and is known as Thomism. Later, among some Protestants these ideas were popularized by James Arminius and others. Today they are known by the term Arminianism (not to be confused with Armenia). This free will system of doctrine is the tie that binds Catholicism and Protestantism together -- and in our day a host of nominal Baptists who also have fallen prey to it.

Say nothing of the nominal Baptists who have fallen prey to Presbyterian theology!!

By carelessness in Bible study on the part of many -- and evident wresting of the Scriptures on the part of some -- many professing Christians now claim to worship a god who is a failure! Often these people slander the Bible by saying it contains two contradictory lines of teaching which cannot be reconciled. They may claim to believe in a sovereign God, but at the same time think mankind has a "free will" by which he can resist God and hinder His working. Thus, they take the Thomist/Arminian view and promote free-willism. (Nowhere does the Bible teach that man's will is free from his depraved nature!)

Nowhere does the Bible teach that salvation comes after regeneration.

This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp.

This is false.

He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people).

In spite of Scripture stating that God loved the world. That Jesus had compassion on the multitude, that Jesus said “forgive them for they know not what they do.”

The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot

Will not.

because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

This is an example of exegetical failure.

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

Tell that to the Author of Psalm 78.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]. '

- rest of article at Is God a Failure?

Failure of some to recognize the power of God and His willingness to have all come to repentance doesn’t mean that everyone who disagrees with you is Arminian.

 

[Ben1445]

I am not sure what your reference to "watchtower" is? Jehovah's Witnesses or something like that?

You got it!!

 

[Ben1445]

Many people write slanted articles that make God look like He is not doing what He should. Calvinism is one that makes God a respecter of persons when He says He is not.

Ours is not to decide for God Who He is. Ours is to take what He has revealed of Himself and share it so that others may know Him.

God has not chosen anyone for Hell.

Pharaoh’s earthly demise is not an example of spiritual death determined by God.

 

[Ben1445]

I am not sure what your reference to "watchtower" is? Jehovah's Witnesses or something like that?

I was raised in the Pelagianism of the Church of Christ until I was 43 years old, when God delivered me from that, and then, by His grace, He brought me under that hearing of the gospel of Christ when I was 65 years old at Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, and opened my heart to understand the gospel of Christ and regenerated me and gave me the gift of faith in Christ's finished work and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which I had been trusting.

I didn't say that Lydia was at Corinth. Where Lydia was makes no difference to the Biblical point I was making.

Yes, Lydia is a good example as to what Paul was referring to in the "natural man." The natural man is a person whose heart God has not opened to attend to understanding the gospel of Christ, and until God opens the heart of His elect people, whom He chose before the world began, they are not yet regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of faith in Christ and His finished work and the gift of repentance of the dead works in which they formerly trusted.

Obviously, Lydia had been chosen by God as one of His elect, He brought her under the hearing of the gospel of Christ, the Holy Spirit regenerated her, and she was given the gift of saving faith and the gift of repentance of dead works.

How can you be certain that you are elect now? How do you know that you are not believing in something that you don’t have access to?

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is choosing a nation to be called His people. This is not salvation.
Another strike.

But He chose them based upon nothing within them. The others nation He left without a covenant, without priests and prophets to intercede for them, not sacrificial system. So, you are correct; that was a strike, that I hammered over 500 feet for a home run.

 

[KenH]

How can you be certain that you are elect now?

I am not certain in anything in or of myself. My certainty is Christ Jesus.

From 2 Timothy 1:12 - "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

And what have I committed unto Christ? My whole salvation.

How do you know that you are not believing in something that you don’t have access to?

I have the entire Word of God, the Bible, and, as God did to Lydia to attend to the things spoken by the apostle Paul, He has done to me - opened my heart to attend to the things written therein.

 

[KenH]

So, you are correct; that was a strike, that I hammered over 500 feet for a home run.

 

[KenH]

God has not chosen anyone for Hell.

Romans 9:10-21
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Psalty]

It is. Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of the Thy power.

"Shall be", not "might be". "Willing", not "reluctant".

Why is the sentence so strongly declarative? Because it concerns the power of God!

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Here is Psalm 110:3 in NASB 95

Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.
— Psalm 110:3

Literally in the greek according to the note “will be freewill offerings”.

You are using a free-will offering to argue calvinism ? Really? Only a Calvinist could make free will be calvinism lol! Calvinists are better at language word games than liberal progressives!

 

[Psalty]

Romans 9:10-21
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Why not keep reading to Pauls conclusion?

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
— Romans 9:30-32

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
— Romans 11:17-23