Domino Effect not just in the Power Grid

[Molly]

I agree with Aaron on this and do see his point. It is the style,the genre, that is the problem as well as lyrics.

If you sang *When I survey the Wondrous Cross* to a stripper genre music(we all know what it sounds like)...how would it make you feel? Reverent? Would you be consumed with Christ's sacrfice and sufferings...would that *style* make you think of something other than God?

And you could have really bad doctrinally incorrect words to a reverent,set apart style and it would be no good either.

I think this is his point!


(But,Mike,that was a funny statement....I try really hard to have a sense of humor....*really hard* being the key words.)

Molly

 

[dianetavegia]

razz·ma·tazz (răz'mə-tăz')
n. Slang.

A flashy action or display intended to bewilder, confuse, or deceive.

Ambiguous or evasive language; double talk.

Ebullient energy; vim.

[Perhaps alteration of RAZZLE-DAZZLE.]

 

[yod]

This is starting to digress into pure sillyness.


The very definition of music is repetition of melody and rhythmic meter. There has never been a song that didn't have those 2 elements


And you think there wasn't dancing in the Temple or synagogue? Just because there is no mention of the priests dancing while they performed the sacrifices does not mean that no one danced within the walls.

You have obviously never been in a synagogue which is OK...but you are speaking out of ignorance if you think that music and dancing have not ALWAYS been part of the worship in the hebrew economy.

It's older than Moses...

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Molly:
I agree with Aaron on this and do see his point. It is the style,then genre that is the problem as well as lyrics.

But do you understand that he's trying to condemn CCM based on what is not CCM? Do you understand that the words are not about "an altered state of consciousness"?

If you sang When I survey the Wondrous cross to a stripper genre music(we all know what it sounds like)...how would it make you feel?

OK, I don't want to open up another can of worms here, but I'm wagering that I'm the only one here who knows that strippers dance to a wide variety of music, too broad to classify as "stripper genre music".

Reverent? Would you be consumed with Christ's sacrfice and sufferings...would that *style* make you think of something other than God?

Actually, I've seen strippers dance to Van Halen's "Dreams" but strippers are the last thing I associate with the song. When I was in therapy, the chorus of the song was somewhat of an anthem for us and I can never hear the song without remembering the Bible's words, "when I am weak, He is strong" and "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me".

Second, in my church, we often do "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Eagles' "Peaceful, Easy Feeling", with the chorus rewritten "Cause I've got a peaceful, easy feeling and I know You won't let me down, now that you've set me on solid ground" and the bridge, "Oh Lord you search my heart and know me, You are the lover of my soul, with Your grace you draw me close, by Your blood I am made whole".

No one who's ever heard it has ever suggested that it was anything less than worshipful and I don't think you could.

We also do a nice version to the tune of the Beach Boys' "Surfer Girl", which is very reverent.

I think this is his point!

Fine. If that was his point, then why did he have to dig up a thirty year old non-Christian song? Why couldn't he have judged CCM on it's own merits for once?

(But,Mike,that was a funny statement....I try really hard to have a sense of humor....*really hard* being the key words.)

Thank you.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
razz·ma·tazz (răz'mə-tăz')
n. Slang.

A flashy action or display intended to bewilder, confuse, or deceive.

Ambiguous or evasive language; double talk.

Ebullient energy; vim.

[Perhaps alteration of RAZZLE-DAZZLE.]

Diane, where did you find this definition? Did it say anything at all about "razzmatazz" being a style of music?

 

[dianetavegia]

I'm much older than most of you and remember it as RazzAmatazz

Text (15 of 42) in Dixieland & San Francisco Jazz

The Showboat Connection, P.O. Box 2246, Springfield, OH 45501 USA
Fax: 937-324-5608 E-Mail: banjo@showboatconnection.com

www.showboatconnection.com/
To see this book, click on that link.

Razzamatazz & Jazz
TITLE: 20 Years Walkin' The Line
CD: STEREO

Item Number: CD-175-1 - Price: $14.95
Also available on double tape cassette set Item Number: T-175-1 - Price: $19.90 How To ORDER

Featuring: Lynn Fullerton - Trumpet; Jerry Steinke - Saxophone; Paul Fertig - Piano; Aaron Jackson - Tuba, Guitar; Steve Kreis - Drums, Wall Boot.

Program:
1. Copenhagen 2:58
2. Walkin' The Line 3:00
3. Wabash Strut 3:47
4. How Come Ya Do Me 3:37
5. Just A Little While To Stay Here 2:58
6. Shimmy Like My Sister Kate 2:56
7. Over In Gloryland 2:37
8. Do You Know What It Means To Miss New Orleans 5:30
9. Bill Bailey 4:11
10. I've Found A New Baby 2:44
11. Rose of Washington Square 4:07
12. Sittin' On Top Of The World 2:05
13. Lovin' You 3:12
14. Just A Closer Walk With Thee 5:30
15. Down By The Riverside 3:00
16. Muskrat Ramble 2:20

 

[dianetavegia]

Muzak for the Masses?
Radiohead and Steely Dan reach the limits of their experimentation

And here comes its sixth album, Hail to the Thief, sounding like it's splitting the difference between what Radiohead once was and what it has become, only the band's borrowings are starting to peek through. "There There" is built on a percolating razzmatazz of layered timbres wed to an emotive vocal that the early Smiths nailed. The gentle ebb and flow of "Where I End and You Begin" rises and falls on a synthscape river flow, Yorke using reverb to fill out his narrow tenor, yet the track's one world-music element away from being Peter Gabriel. The bass-belch stutter stepping into Yorke's lackadaisical growl that opens "Myxomatosis" sounds a little too Stone Temple Pilot's "Vaseline." Even when Radiohead delves into the plangent piano ballad that gave Coldplay a reason to exist ("Sail to the Moon," "We Suck Young Blood"), it sounds less like itself and more like any late-'90s Brit-pop hanger-on. Through it all, Yorke sings oblique tales of fear and trembling, sounding like he's the last man standing with a brain and the heart to match.

http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2003-07-13-radiohead.shtml

I searched using Gurunet and came up with many musical pages using razzmatazz. Melanie Griffith in Chicago gave it a razzmatazz touch, etc.

The definition was from a regular dictionary.

Diane

 

[Mike McK]

Diane,

I understand that "razzmatazz" or, in this case "razzamatazz" is a slang word used to describe ragtime and Dixieland music of that period. My question is, is there a distinct musical style called "razzmatazz"? I don't believe there is and I can't find any evidence that there is.

 

[dianetavegia]

Like Be-Bop?

Razzmatazz reminds me of Cab Calloway and "Minnie the Moocher". The lyrics and the style are confusing and wild.

Diane

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Like Be-Bop?

That didn't come along until long after ragtime and Dixieland.

Razzmatazz reminds me of Cab Calloway and "Minnie the Moocher".

I would think that's more house blues or jump blues or even jive than jazz.

The lyrics and the style are confusing and wild.

What's confusing about them?

 

[dianetavegia]

What I was asking is, Is Be-Bop really a musical style or a 'pet name' for a type of music?

I think of roadhouses and razzmatazz. By confusing... He taught her how to kick the gong around (dance? drugs?). Wild and confusing for 1930!

Folks, now here's the story 'bout Minnie the Moocher,
She was a red-hot hootchie-cootcher,
She was the roughest, toughest frail,
But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale.

[Call and response scat chorus differs every time. The following is simplified:]
Hi-de-hi-de-hi-di-hi!
Ho-de-ho-de-ho-de-ho!
He-de-he-de-he-de-he!
Ho-de-ho-de-ho!

Now, she messed around with a bloke named Smoky,
She loved him though he was cokie,
He took her down to Chinatown,
He showed her how to kick the gong around.

Now, she had a dream about the king of Sweden,
He gave her things that she was needin',
He gave her a home built of gold and steel,
A diamond car with a platinum wheel.

Now, he gave her his townhouse and his racing horses,
Each meal she ate was a dozen courses;
She had a million dollars worth of nickels and dimes,
And she sat around and counted them all a billion times.

Poor Min, poor Min, poor Min.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
What I was asking is, Is Be-Bop really a musical style or a 'pet name' for a type of music?

No, unlike Aaron's "razzmatazz", BeBop is a real type of music.

Here's a brief discription from AllMusicGuide.com:

Also known as bebop, Bop was a radical new music that developed gradually in the early '40s and exploded in 1945. The main difference between bop and swing is that the soloists engaged in chordal (rather than melodic) improvisation, often discarding the melody altogether after the first chorus and using the chords as the basis for the solo. Ensembles tended to be unisons, most jazz groups were under seven pieces, and the soloist was free to get as adventurous as possible as long as the overall improvisation fit into the chord structure. Since the virtuoso musicians were getting away from using the melodies as the basis for their solos (leading some listeners to ask "Where's the melody?") and some of the tempos were very fast, bop divorced itself from popular music and a dancing audience, uplifting jazz to an art music but cutting deeply into its potential commercial success. Ironically the once-radical bebop style has become the foundation for all of the innovations that followed and now can be almost thought of as establishment music. Among its key innovators were altoist Charlie Parker, trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, pianist Bud Powell, drummer Max Roach, and pianist/composer Thelonious Monk. — Scott Yanow

Some Important Albums:

Dizzy Gillespie with Roy Eldridge
Dizzy Gillespie [1954] Oscar Peterson Trio with Clark Terry
Clark Terry [1964]
Way Out West [OJC/Contemporary]
Sonny Rollins [1991] Sonny Stitt/Bud Powel/J.J. Johnson
Sonny Stitt/Bud Powel/J.J. Johnson [1949]
Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 2
Thelonious Monk [1951] Boss Tenors: Straight Ahead from Chicago 1961
Gene Ammons with Sonny Stitt [1961]
Complete Blue Note Recordings
Thelonious Monk [1947] Taylor's Wailers
Art Taylor [1956]
Blue Lights, Vol. 2
Kenny Burrell [1958] Chase
Dexter Gordon [2001]
Prestige First Sessions, Vol. 2
Sonny Stitt [1950] Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 1
Thelonious Monk [1947]
Amazing Bud Powell, Vol. 2 [Expanded]
Bud Powell [1951] Brilliant Corners
Thelonious Monk [1956]

Gene Ammons
Louie Bellson
Walter Bishop, Jr.
Ray Brown
Kenny Burrell
Don Byas
Charlie Christian
Sonny Clark
Kenny Clarke
Al Cohn
Richie Cole
Tadd Dameron
Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis
Miles Davis
Walter Davis, Jr.
Buddy DeFranco
Lou Donaldson
George Duvivier
Billy Eckstine
Teddy Edwards
Herb Ellis
Tal Farlow
Art Farmer
Ella Fitzgerald
Tommy Flanagan
Erroll Garner
Terry Gibbs
Dizzy Gillespie

I think of roadhouses and razzmatazz.

"Razzmatazz" is an adjective associated with Dixieland and ragtime so you probably wouldn't find it in many roadhouses, since Dixieland and jazz was prevalent in the cities, particularly Chicago, St. Louis and New Orleans.

I think you'd be much mor likely to find jump blues and house blues or the very early (T-Bone Walker era) R&B in roadhouses.

By confusing...

He taught her how to kick the gong around (dance? drugs?). Wild and confusing for 1930!

It's about drugs. She was a coke fiend. Like the "Annie and Henry" series, the song spawned a series of follow ups including "Minnie the Moocher's Wedding Day", "Minnie the Moocher is Dead" and "Minnie the Moocher at the Morgue" so, evidently, she was a bigger coke fiend than we thought. Poor Min, poor Min.

Also, I don't know if you realize this or not but many of the songs of that era were full of sex and drug referrences. We have this idea that this is a recent thing but there was as much, if not moreso, then.

 

[dianetavegia]

Thanks Mike. I was not aware of that! My uncle Fred played drums in a 'honkey-tonk' and I'd hear some of the music he played. He's 11 years older than me. Mamaw used to beat him with a razor strap over that music!
I've led a very sheltered life.

Diane

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Thanks Mike. I was not aware of that!Diane

Happy to help.

By the way, I just wanted to add something to the above discription of be-bop, just for trivia's sake. In the thrities and forties, most of the big bands, including Glann Miller and both of the Dorsey Brothers, had side bands who did bebop.

It's still some of their best music.

 

[Aaron]

Woah! I don't care if anyone thinks razzmatazz is a form of jazz or not. If you would care to check out the URL I supplied, you would see it in a long list of descriptive terms.

It seems Mike's agenda is to try to prove that razzmatazz is not a genre. I don't care if it is or not. It was a common term used to describe dixieland jazz. The whole point of the old thread, contrary to Mike's false assertions was not that there was something called razzmatazz, but that the Church did not use popular musical styles of the day.

Let's put this thread back on track. No more posts about this. I'll zap the next one from my high and mighty seat of power.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
As for Aaron, head over to your local Baptist University and ask the resident music history professor about music in the early church and he'll disagree with you.

I don't need too. What will he know about it that Donald J. Grout hasn't said? And he will go to Grout because Grout wrote the textbook he used to study music history. </font>[/QUOTE]Considering that they have completed a Ph.D. in the field, and, as such, have written dissortations along with numerous other research topics, one can imagine that they use much more than Grout.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Molly:
If you sang *When I survey the Wondrous Cross* to a stripper genre music(we all know what it sounds like)...how would it make you feel?

ARGH! Molly, please...great example to make the point, but...never use it again ok? I think I'm going to have nightmares for a month

Just did a mad dash for my Mandate: All For Jesus CD. Hopefully a few times listening to When I Survey from that will stop "The Stripper" going through my head

Pete

 

[Aaron]

It is easier to evoke ecstatic responses with repetitious, heavily rhythmic music than it is with handclapping, hallelujah's, glory's to God, and so on repeated over and over in a mantra-like fashion.

When they palt their music, ooh that modern music
They like it with a lot of style
But t's still that same old back beat rhythm
That really drives 'em wild

 

[Eric B]

McK said:

It reminds me of the time you tried to convince us that there was this "evil" kind of music called "razzmatazz" that no one had ever heard of.

Boy, I missed that one. I've been here longer than you, and I don't remember that. Lost amongst all his other arguments, I guess.
Perhaps he was thinking of the song "Razzamatazz" by Quincy Jones. He is considered a jazz performer, though that song was more disco/funk.
Aaron said:

Now, the statement you made, "...the most common beats used in rock aren't even exacly like the beats of voodoo ritual," presupposes that you have a good knowledge of the beats used in a voodoo ritual. I know from my reading that there are many different rhythms used by the drummer to control the one who is possessed by the "loa" (a demon really). To get a certain response he uses a certain rhythm. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the kinds of rhythms used, the corresponding results, and how they differ from the most common rock beats. This is a level of knowledge necessary to make the statement you made, and a level of knowledge I don't think you have.

Generally, when you think of voodoo ritual dance, you think of really fast drumming, and even on slower dances, it does not sound exactly like our contemporary music. There have been enough films and performances of tribal life shown on TV and elsewhere for anyone to get a sense of what voodoo ritual was like, and it's only real connection to "jazz" or "rock" as a whole, is those forms not following the dry marching or waltzing formula of traditional music, and some elements were borrowed and refashioned. But the music as a whole does not look or sound like voodoo. This is an overgeneralization used to try to make traditional look like God's only style.

So, speaking of broad categorizations, you take the cake with that one. Or...

...is it the one that says the Early Church Fathers were anti-semetic, Plato-poisoned and sexually frustrated?

A significant number of them. I never said all. I don't see why that is so hard to believe. If you look at a lot of their writings, you can see this. And We have the NT epistles warning us of many of those false doctrines and practices coming in. But no, we think all of Church history was totally biblical until they brought that rock&roll in in the 1960's.

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Molly:
I agree with Aaron on this and do see his point. It is the style,the genre, that is the problem as well as lyrics.

If you sang *When I survey the Wondrous Cross* to a stripper genre music(we all know what it sounds like)...how would it make you feel? Reverent? Would you be consumed with Christ's sacrfice and sufferings...would that *style* make you think of something other than God?
Molly

Actually, I have no idea what stripper music sounds like, so I bet that if I heard it to When I Survey The Wondrous Cross I would think about the same thing I always do when I hear the song. I HAVE heard it put to a soft rock music by Skillet in concert, and it was tremendous.