Of course they do. According to Calvinism, an unregenerate man lacks the ability to will to be saved. They cannot give their consent to be saved, so if God regenerates them, that is against their will. Oh, you can say that AFTER they are regenerated they are willing, but that is after they have already been regenerated against their will.
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Don't Armeniens/Calvinists BOTh Teach Grace/Faith Alone ?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Of course they do. According to Calvinism, an unregenerate man lacks the ability to will to be saved. They cannot give their consent to be saved, so if God regenerates them, that is against their will. Oh, you can say that AFTER they are regenerated they are willing, but that is after they have already been regenerated against their will.
Based upon the teachings that I have read on this board, that is exactly what Calvinists believe.
I know that Calvinist believe the gospel but, I don't how they believe they are saved by faith alone. Since they believe, they can not have any faith until they are "regenerated" or, "saved", first. Since both terms (in quotation marks), mean exactly the same thing. They infact seem to believe that they must be saved in order to have faith. So where's the faith when they are saved. If we are saved by faith at all, don't you think we must have that faith first in order to be saved by faith? Can we be saved by something we don't have. I for one do not believe so.
MB
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Sorry, but it is not and this has been said over and over and over again. However, this isn't on the topic at hand(why am I not surprised). Calvinists and Arminians both believe the same gospel.
It is not the same gospel. In Calvinism regeneration is the power, without regeneration a person cannot believe the gospel. In non-Cal theology, the gospel itself is the power that makes a person spiritually alive.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: FOR IT IS THE POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The gospel itself has power to make a person alive who believes it.
2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are ABLE to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
It is not regeneration that enables us to believe, it is the word of God, the holy scriptures. Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17), not regeneration.
Jesus said his words are spirit and life (John 6:63). His very words carry power, when we believe his words we are made spiritually alive, and it is his holy scriptures that are able to make us wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, not regeneration.
Nowhere in scriptures does it ever say a person must be regenerated to believe.
Regeneration before faith or after isn't a difference in the gospel. We believe the same gospel.
Here is the gospel
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
(1 Corinthians 15:3-5 ESV)
We both teach that salvation is by grace through faith.
I'm not going to discuss regeneration/faith issue here. It's not in the OP. Please don't derail the discussion into one of your usual rants.
Calvinists teach that the faith is forced by God. According to Calvinists, man does not have a choice but to have faith.
You know,instead of simply repeating an untruth continuously -- you should back up your assertions. Document where any Calvinists on the BB has said that faith is forced by God. If you can't do that then apologize and tell us you were wrong.
"I do not believe that God needs man's participation to save him. God can save babies without them doing a thing." - Luke2427
"God can save without participation on the part of the ones he saves in Calvinism." - Luke2427
"Mine says that God saves whomsoever he wills without need of their participation." - Luke2427
"In fact God saves all men without their participation, as far as that goes. God gives men the faith to believe and gives them a heart that wants to believe. That is his way of saving." - Luke2427
Each of these demonstrates that God forces people to be saved. To deny that they say that is simply disingenuous.
I'll accept your apology at anytime.
Matt you have not produced a shred of evidence that any Calvinist here has maintained that God forces faith on people. Remember, force implies that the subject is reluctant.
actually, none of them they that. More misrepresentation.
convicted1
Guest
Bro. jbh,
Here is a more accurate description of the Gospel...or at least I think it is:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The Gospel is more than merely "good news", but it is His power to save the believer!! It was His power that resurrected Jesus' that morning from the tomb!! If Jesus had not risen, our faith and preaching would be in vain.
Now to the OP, yes we(both C/A) believe the same gospel. There is but one to believe in to start with!!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Matt,
This only proves that you do not understand what Luke posted.How are you going to come to truth if you cannot understand what you read?
Lukes posts that you offer show God's mercy, not force.
No, the posts (and the history of Luke's other posts) show that Luke has consistently taught that God forces man's heart into a condition that they will want the mercy. If God forces people to desire what He wants, it's the same thing as forcing them to do what He wants.
So I would assume the you believe that God never changes anyone's heart. We wouldn't want to force someone to be sanctified now would we. And definitely not glorified.
As a Calvinist, do you believe that the elect can avoid being saved?
Sure. Many do for years. But they will com.e at some point. They will come willingly. Otherwise God would have elected to save someone and failed to do so.
So they will be saved simply because God decided to save them, not by any choice of their own. That is God forcing a person to be saved. You, and other Calvinists, can attempt to twist and turn and do gymnastics all you want, but that is what it means. Calvinists believe that God forces people to be saved.
You are the one that is twisting our words. I was not forced against my will to be saved. To keep saying that would mean you are being dishonest. I guess you don't have anything substantial to backup your believes so you must resort to straw man argumentation.
I also noticed you ignored my other response.
