Don't Armeniens/Calvinists BOTh Teach Grace/Faith Alone ?

[Winman]

Wikipedia says this of Irresistible Grace

Jonathan Edwards has sometimes been quoted - notably by R. C. Sproul - as referring to the irresistible call of God as the "holy rape of the soul" but the phrase does not appear in Edward's works. Instead the phrase seems to have been coined by Puritan scholar Perry Miller, and most Calvinists distance themselves from it.

You can also google "R. C. Sproul holy rape of the soul" and find many articles. From what I read, Sproul seems to have said this several times, and has used this in his writings as well to describe Irresistible Grace.
Google and see for yourself.

 

[Andy T.]

It is not the same gospel.

Another example for you, Webdog.

 

[matt wade]

You are the one that is twisting our words. I was not forced against my will to be saved. To keep saying that would mean you are being dishonest. I guess you don't have anything substantial to backup your believes so you must resort to straw man argumentation.

Why did you have a will to be saved? Did you come to that will on your own, or was the will instilled in you?

 

[Tom Butler]

Another term for irresistible grace is "effectual call."

Here's one passage to deal with:

Romans 8:30 "Those he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he justified...."

Looks like 100 percent of the called are justified. Looks pretty effectual to me.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's another argument from Sinclair Ferguson:

The New Testament's statements on regeneration emphasize the sovereign, monergistic, activity of the Spirit. The metaphor of birth itself implies not only a radical new beginning, but one which is never autonomous. The divine monergism behind it is spelled out elsewhere in antitheses: we are born, not of our own will, but of God's decision (Jn. 1:12); from above, not from below; of the Spirit, not of the flesh (Jn. 3:3, 5-6); of God, not of man (1 Jn. 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18); by God's choice, not our own; through his word, not out of the energies of an autonomous will (Jas. 1:18). The priority here is accorded to God, not to man. The reason for this is that man is 'flesh'.

Did anybody here will to be born?

 

[jbh28]

Why did you have a will to be saved? Did you come to that will on your own, or was the will instilled in you?

When you answer my previous response...

 

[Winman]

Here's another argument from Sinclair Ferguson:



Did anybody here will to be born?

Have you ever known a person who was born of one parent? Jesus had two parents, God and Mary.

When a person accepts Christ they are cleansed and baptized into Christ. The two merge to form a new creature, just as the seed from both our earthly parents merge to form a new person.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is JOINED unto the Lord IS ONE SPIRIT.

How can one be joined? It is impossible, it takes at least two to be "joined".

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness WITH OUR SPIRIT, that we are the children of God.

 

[matt wade]

When you answer my previous response...

Bye Bye then...

 

[jbh28]

Bye Bye then...

That's what I figured... You must have realized how inconsistent your argument was.

 

[Tom Butler]

Have you ever known a person who was born of one parent? Jesus had two parents, God and Mary.

When a person accepts Christ they are cleansed and baptized into Christ. The two merge to form a new creature, just as the seed from both our earthly parents merge to form a new person.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is JOINED unto the Lord IS ONE SPIRIT.

How can one be joined? It is impossible, it takes at least two to be "joined".

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness WITH OUR SPIRIT, that we are the children of God.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but it doesn't appear to address Sinclair Ferguson's points.

If you are responding, help me see how.

 

[Winman]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but it doesn't appear to address Sinclair Ferguson's points.

If you are responding, help me see how.

I was responding to the question does anybody will to be born. I pointed out it takes two persons to create a birth, Jesus became man through the union (non physical) between God and Mary. Did Mary give her consent? YES.
And likewise, when we are born again it takes two, the Holy Spirit and our spirit. We must give our consent as shown when Jesus says he knocks at the door. He wants to come in, but we must give our consent by opening the door, he does not force his way in.
The spiritual birth is the joining of our spirit with the Holy Spirit to create a new person, just as happens with physical birth. Our parent's seed merged together to form us. We are not our parents, we are a new creation and individuals.

 

[Tom Butler]

I was responding to the question does anybody will to be born. I pointed out it takes two persons to create a birth, Jesus became man through the union (non physical) between God and Mary. Did Mary give her consent? YES.
And likewise, when we are born again it takes two, the Holy Spirit and our spirit. We must give our consent as shown when Jesus says he knocks at the door. He wants to come in, but we must give our consent by opening the door, he does not force his way in.
The spiritual birth is the joining of our spirit with the Holy Spirit to create a new person, just as happens with physical birth. Our parent's seed merged together to form us. We are not our parents, we are a new creation and individuals.

Okay, thanks, I understand now. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this because we're starting from different premises. You're taking the synergist route, and I start as a monergist.

I hold that the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is unilateral, and that regeneration precedes saving faith. You hold that one must cooperate with the work of the Spirit to be regenerated/saved. Your mind and mine aren't likely to change positions, but maybe someone reading our posts will benefit (by that I mean buy my argument instead of yours). Heh heh.

 

[Winman]

Okay, thanks, I understand now. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this because we're starting from different premises. You're taking the synergist route, and I start as a monergist.

I hold that the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is unilateral, and that regeneration precedes saving faith. You hold that one must cooperate with the work of the Spirit to be regenerated/saved. Your mind and mine aren't likely to change positions, but maybe someone reading our posts will benefit.

Well, I showed you scripture that says he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

The vast majority of physical births occur through consent. The Lord commanded a rapist to be put to death, it was a crime in his sight. I do not agree with Luke that the Lord can break his own commandments.

 

[jaigner]

Calvinists teach that the faith is forced by God.

Wow. This demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of the basic tenets of Calvinism or Calvin himself.

 

[kyredneck]

....Jesus became man through the union (non physical) between God and Mary. Did Mary give her consent? YES....

From Lu 1:

31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The angel is using some strong language. He didn't say you could Mary, or that you may Mary, he said you shall Mary. He seems mighty certain that this is the way it's gonna go.

38 And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I'm not convinced that this is 'a consent' on her part. But I will admit that I'm at a lack of words to describe it, and that I had not even considered it from this angle before. I did some googling on this, Mary's consent seems to be a big deal with the Catholics. There's others that say God raped her if it was without her consent. There's something about this that is very distaseful to me.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath looked upon the low estate of his handmaid: For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; And holy is his name.

Again, I'm not convinced that a consent is the right description of what occurred in v 38.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, I showed you scripture that says he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

The vast majority of physical births occur through consent. The Lord commanded a rapist to be put to death, it was a crime in his sight. I do not agree with Luke that the Lord can break his own commandments.

But without the consent of the one who is born.

I have a request. Can we please stop referring to irresistible grace as rape? I frankly am horrified by that expression, I don't care who thought it up.

I can abide those who want to talk about God's forcing one to believe, but "holy rape" is beyond the pale.

I'll say this one more thing. God drags no one kicking and screaming into the kingdom of heaven. There will be no one in heaven who doesn't want to be there. But God is gracious in giving the elect a new heart so that their desires are changed.

But I'll tell you this. I have some unsaved relatives and I would have no hesitancy in asking God to over-ride their will and make them willing to trust him.

 

[Winman]

But without the consent of the one who is born.

I have a request. Can we please stop referring to irresistible grace as rape? I frankly am horrified by that expression, I don't care who thought it up.

I can abide those who want to talk about God's forcing one to believe, but "holy rape" is beyond the pale.

I'll say this one more thing. God drags no one kicking and screaming into the kingdom of heaven. There will be no one in heaven who doesn't want to be there. But God is gracious in giving the elect a new heart so that their desires are changed.

But I'll tell you this. I have some unsaved relatives and I would have no hesitancy in asking God to over-ride their will and make them willing to trust him.

Tom, I agree that holy rape is a horrible term. But from what I have read it was R C Sproul who used this very expression in one or more of his books and sermons.

Calvinists here are always telling non-Cals like myself that we do not understand Calvinism and misrepresent it. I hardly believe they can say that of Sproul whose writings are often posted here.

Now if a noted Reformed author and scholar calls Irresistable Grace holy rape I believe that shows he clearly believes God forces himself on unwilling persons.

But then it is argued the person becomes willing. So do victims in this world, it is called the Stockholm Syndrome. Elizabeth Smart comes to mind, she was abducted by a pervert against her will and repeatedly assaulted. But the mind has a way of protecting itself and she became willing. This has been shown numerous times, Patty Hearst is another famous example.

So, do you really believe in your heart that a person who abducts and assaults a person against their will has committed no crime because the victim later becomes willing?

 

[Rippon]

Tom, I agree that holy rape is a horrible term. But from what I have read it was R C Sproul who used this very expression in one or more of his books and sermons.

Calvinists here are always telling non-Cals like myself that we do not understand Calvinism and misrepresent it. I hardly believe they can say that of Sproul whose writings are often posted here.

Now if a noted Reformed author and scholar calls Irresistable Grace holy rape I believe that shows he clearly believes God forces himself on unwilling persons.

Are you feigning ignorance? Are you really trying to say that R.C.Sproul thinks that irrestistable grace(effectual calling) H.R?! Your reading comprehension has to be better than that,or else you are deliberately engaging in misrepresentation once more. R.R.Sproul belives in effectual calling. He would never refer to it as something so horrid. He was quoting what some who hate the doctrine call it. Please try to be more honest in your postings.

 

[Winman]

Tom, I did a little search and found Sproul used this expression in two books. In both instances he called regeneration "holy rape of the soul". I saw and read the actual excerpts.

The books are;

Thy Brother's Keeper by R. C. Sproul 1988

Johnny Come Home by R. C. Sproul 1984

Sproul has said this expression originated with Jonathan Edwards, but it has not been found in his writings.

So, don't tell me I do not understand Reformed doctrine, I have been debating Calvinists here almost daily for two years. I have heard their explanations and find them often to be utterly illogical and often directly contradictory to themselves. I am convinced that to become a Calvinist a person must abandon their God-given common sense and sense of what is right and wrong. They must convince themselves that contradictions can be true. It is very illogical doctrine.

Forcing youself on someone against their will is wrong. We have laws against that and rightly so.

 

[Winman]

Are you feigning ignorance? Are you really trying to say that R.C.Sproul thinks that irrestistable grace(effectual calling) H.R?! Your reading comprehension has to be better than that,or else you are deliberately engaging in misrepresentation once more. R.R.Sproul belives in effectual calling. He would never refer to it as something so horrid. He was quoting what some who hate the doctrine call it. Please try to be more honest in your postings.

Look it up, I just showed the two books he used this expression and read the actual excerpts. It is easily found online.

Edit- And Sproul was not rebuking someone else who used this term, he used it himself to describe the conversion of a young man. If I was not on a mobile phone I would copy and paste the links and actual excerpts from his books. I do not have that feature, but trust me, I would love to show you so that you cannot falsely accuse me.

I am not making this up or misrepresenting Sproul, do a little work and look it up, I found it easily.