douay rheims/ KJV

[wfdfiremedic]

How similar in translation are these 2 bibles? I read the AV gathered some influence from the DR. I would also assume the DR utilizes a Latin text basis?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[franklinmonroe]

... I read the AV gathered some influence from the DR. I would also assume the DR utilizes a Latin text basis?

The Douay (also Douai) Old Testament was published too late to be infuential on the AV: the first volume Genesis - Job came in 1609; the following year Psalms - 2 Machabees (plus Apocrypha) was released as a second volume. But the Rheims New Testament had been issued in 1582.

 

[Logos1560]

The 1582 Rheims New Testament did have some influence on the 1611 KJV.

On the other hand, the KJV had influence on the later revisions of the Douay-Rheims.

 

[Logos1560]

Here are some examples from the Gospel of Matthew where the 1611 KJV followed the rendering in the 1582 Rheims instead of one of the renderings in one of the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops').


Matt. 1:18 betrothed (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
married (Coverdale’s, Great) spoused (Rheims) espoused (KJV)
Matt. 2:6 govern (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Bishops’)
feed (Geneva) rule (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 3:7 vengeance (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham‘s)
anger (Geneva, Bishops’) wrath (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 4:24 gripings (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) torments (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 8:6 pained (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) tormented (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 8:20 to rest his head (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) to lay his head (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 11:22 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 11:23 lift up (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great)
lifted up (Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’) exalted (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 11:24 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 15:19 whoredoms (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) fornications (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 16:9 perceive (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) understand (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 17:18 healed (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) cured (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 19:12 chaste (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
gelded (Coverdale’s) eunuchs (Rheims, KJV)

 

[Jerome]

The DR widely available online is really the 1899 American edition of Challoner's eighteenth-century "KJVified" DR revision.

 

[rsr]

Absolutely. Challoner's revision (or more precisely, the successive revisions of Challoner's translation) tends to follow phraseology from the KJV in many cases as opposed to the thinly disguised Latin of the original.

John Henry Cardinal Newman in 1859 judged that:

Looking at Dr. Challoner's labours on the Old Testament as a whole, we may pronounce that they issue in little short of a new translation. They can as little be said to be made on the basis of the Douay as on the basis of the Protestant version. Of course there must be a certain resemblance between any two Catholic versions whatever, because they are both translations of the same Vulgate; but, this connection between the Douay and Challoner being allowed for, Challoner's version is even nearer to the Protestant than it is to the Douay; nearer, that is, not in grammatical structure, but in phraseology and diction.

An example of the differences, shown in translations of Ephesians 6:12:

Douay 1582 (spelling modernized):

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood: but against Princes and Potestates, against the rectors of the world of this darkness, against the spirituals of wickedness in the celestials.

Current DR:

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

KJV:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Some Roman Catholics are still DR-onlyists; some, in fact, reject the Challoner revision as a corruption of the pure word of the Vulgate.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thanks for good information.

I grew up with the 1941 Confraternity (kind of like a RSV of the Douay) and was amazed at how accurate it was to the Greek in TENSES contrasted to other English translations.

 

[Jerome]

Here are some examples from the Gospel of Matthew where the 1611 KJV followed the rendering in the 1582 Rheims instead of one of the renderings in one of the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops').


Matt. 1:18 betrothed (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
married (Coverdale’s, Great) spoused (Rheims) espoused (KJV)
Matt. 2:6 govern (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Bishops’)
feed (Geneva) rule (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 3:7 vengeance (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham‘s)
anger (Geneva, Bishops’) wrath (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 4:24 gripings (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) torments (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 8:6 pained (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) tormented (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 8:20 to rest his head (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) to lay his head (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 11:22 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 11:23 lift up (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great)
lifted up (Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’) exalted (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 11:24 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 15:19 whoredoms (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) fornications (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 16:9 perceive (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) understand (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 17:18 healed (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) cured (Rheims, KJV)
Matt. 19:12 chaste (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
gelded (Coverdale’s) eunuchs (Rheims, KJV)

Wow.
If that comes from one of your booklets you really need to revise it.

Espoused appeared in Taverner's,
wrath and understand were in some Coverdales;
torments, fornications, and eunuchs, in Genevas;
leye his head dates back to the first Tyndale;
etc., etc., etc.

 

[Jerome]

Challoner's revision (or more precisely, the successive revisions of Challoner's translation) tends to follow phraseology from the KJV in many cases. . . .

An example of the differences, shown in translations of Ephesians 6:12:

Douay 1582 (spelling modernized):

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood: but against Princes and Potestates, against the rectors of the world of this darkness, against the spirituals of wickedness in the celestials.

Current DR:

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

KJV:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Bump. Just a reminder for those who, noticing the many correspondences between today's Rhemes and the KJB, have erroneously suggested that most of the KJB NT is copied from the earlier Rhemes. In fact, most of these correspondences are due to the eighteenth century revising of Rhemes by Challoner, who freely borrowed from the KJB. You are likely reading the Challoner revision, not the original Rhemes.

 

[Dr. Bob]

(Aside: at least knowing the correct spelling of Rheims gives a little more credability to the argument)

 

[HankD]

Bump. Just a reminder for those who, noticing the many correspondences between today's Rhemes and the KJB, have erroneously suggested that most of the KJB NT is copied from the earlier Rhemes. In fact, most of these correspondences are due to the eighteenth century revising of Rhemes by Challoner, who freely borrowed from the KJB. You are likely reading the Challoner revision, not the original Rhemes.

So that's why I was saved reading the Rheims NT!

HankD

 

[Jerome]

You are likely reading the Challoner revision, not the original Rhemes.

(Aside: at least knowing the correct spelling of Rheims gives a little more credability to the argument)

 

[Jerome]

Here are some examples from the Gospel of Matthew where the 1611 KJV followed the rendering in the 1582 Rheims instead of one of the renderings in one of the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops').

Matt. 1:18 betrothed (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
married (Coverdale’s, Great) spoused (Rheims) espoused (KJV)

Huh? Here's a Taverner's with "espowsed"

Here are some examples from the Gospel of Matthew where the 1611 KJV followed the rendering in the 1582 Rheims instead of one of the renderings in one of the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops').

Matt. 4:24 gripings (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) torments (Rheims, KJV)

Huh? Here's a Geneva with "torments"

Here are some examples from the Gospel of Matthew where the 1611 KJV followed the rendering in the 1582 Rheims instead of one of the renderings in one of the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops').

Matt. 8:20 to rest his head (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) to lay his head (Rheims, KJV)

Huh? Here's a Tyndale with "leye hys heed"

 

[TCassidy]

I can't believe you resurrected a 6 year old thread! LOL!

 

[Rippon]

I can't believe you resurrected a 6 year old thread! LOL!

I have been known to awaken the dead as well a time or two. ;-)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

That was when you had folks stand for the benediction.

I have been known to awaken the dead as well a time or two. ;-)

 

[HankD]

I can't believe you resurrected a 6 year old thread! LOL!

No wonder I couldn't remember it.

HankD

 

[HankD]

OK but look at how they spelled Jesus - IESVS.

 

[rsr]

Common spelling of the time. (J and U weren't fully recognized as completely separate from I and V until much later. See The life and doctrine of ovr Savior Iesvs Christ by contemporary theologian Henry More.)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

In the handwriting of the time, I and J were all but identical. That's why in the pre-typewriter US Army there was a I Company\Troop but no J.

Common spelling of the time. (J and U weren't fully recognized as completely separate from I and V until much later. See The life and doctrine of ovr Savior Iesvs Christ by contemporary theologian Henry More.)