Double Double Toil and Trouble

[Jacob_Elliott]

I have always heard, and believed, that man cannot just decide to get saved. That he has to be drawn by the holy spirit and convicted in order to be saved. But the caveat to this is at this point, that person has to decide to accept this gift, not by doing anything, but really by ceasing to do anything. To stop trying, and allow God to complete His work. From what I understand, this agrees with Calvinism so far.

But I believe that this opportunity to "give up" and let God do His work is given to every man at some point in his lifetime, and then that person is faced with a choice. Either keep doing things your own way, or simply let God do what He wants. I think that this places me in the Armenian camp.

I personally think that there has to be a choice, for I believe that God will not force Himself on anyone.

In short, I believe that man cannot come to God of his own volition, but that God will not force Himself on anyone. Not sure where that falls with the Cal/Arm debate. From what I read on here, I would guess that I lean more towards Arm.

Edited to ask: is there a difference between "Armenian" and "non-Cal"? I see several people say non-Cal instead of Arm.

I wouldn't call you arminian by any means, just bible believing baptist

 

[Protestant]

One false argument of Calvinism is that the non elect DESERVE to go to hell.

Not true, Winman.

We believe what the Scriptures teach: all men are sinners and as such deserve eternal punishment for their sins.

The Elect deserve exactly what the Reprobate deserve.

However, God, in His mercy, made a decision in eternity before mankind was born: He would save a people from the punishment their sins deserved.

The people He chose to save are called the Elect because they are elected to salvation.

That election is called the Election of Grace because:

1. It is undeserved and unmerited on the part of the Elect.

2. Its cause is the will of good pleasure found in God alone.

3. No cause is found in man, not one good thing, including ‘foreseen faith’ because saving faith is the miraculous creation of God, a gift which He freely gives to the Elect.

Men go to hell not because of any sin they have committed, but because God always hated them.

When you consider the doctrine of original sin (which Paul teaches earlier in Romans 5), death passed from Adam to the entire human race because all have sinned in Adam, our Federal Head/Representative.

Therefore, all mankind deserves the hatred of a holy righteous God who cannot look upon sin.

He must judge sin.

The sin of the Elect was judged and punished in Christ.

The sin of the Reprobate will be judged and punished in the Reprobate.

The ‘why’of His decision to love certain men (and women, of course) is one which He does not reveal. We are to be satisfied that there is no cause to be found outside of His will.

“I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy.”​

Please note that He does not say, “I will have mercy upon whom I foresee faith.”

Had Paul wished to teach Arminianism, he should have inserted 'foreseen faith' as the cause of Election.

Those whom the Lord passes by, refusing to give them grace (which they do not deserve), He does them no injustice.

Why He has chosen to pass them by, withholding grace, He does not reveal.

But by so doing there is no injustice with God because grace is owed no one.

Furthermore, since the Lord is immutable – the same yesterday, today and forever – it is quite biblical to say that He has always hated the reprobate.

It is also quite biblical to say that He has always loved the Elect.

"I have loved you with an everlasting love."​

His reason for loving one (Jacob) while hating the other (Esau) is not because one has done something good and worthy while the other has done something wicked and vile.

Both were sinners still in the womb when the Lord declared the destiny of each man.

The reason for His decision lies hidden in His inscrutable, holy and most wise will.

But be assured, Winman, that those Reprobate who die in their sins will be judged and punished for those sins.

PS I see you have not responded to my previous post which addresses more of your errors.

 

[Winman]

How could Esau deserve hell if God hated him before he had done any evil? His fate was already decided, had nothing to do with sinning.

The same would hold true for all the non-elect.

You Calvinists are not very sharp when it comes to logic.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

How could Esau deserve hell if God hated him before he had done any evil? His fate was already decided, had nothing to do with sinning.

The same would hold true for all the non-elect.

You Calvinists are not very sharp when it comes to logic.

Winman you weren't being very uplifting in your response, out of curiosity why do you believe God hated Esau?

 

[franklinmonroe]

The term “double predestination” simply means that, just as God predestines some, but not all, to eternal salvation, so he predestines others to eternal punishment; this second part of “double” predestination, God's appointment of all but the elect unto eternal destruction, is sometimes called “reprobation”; and those who are not the elect are thus called the “reprobate”.

Every Bible-believer should affirm the above. How could you not? Are you suggesting God does not predestinate? The Bible clearly teaches that God has predestined people from Eternity Past. Some are going to Heaven, the rest are going to Hell. God already knows what their destiny is. How could God ignore an entire population segment? The word "double" isn't really necessary; predestination must address both the saved ("elect") and the lost ("reprobate"). Doesn't that make perfectly good sense?

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Every Bible-believer should affirm the above. How could you not? Are you suggesting God does not predestinate? The Bible clearly teaches that God has predestined people from Eternity Past. Some are going to Heaven, the rest are going to Hell. God already knows what their destiny is. How could God ignore an entire population segment? The word "double" isn't really necessary; predestination must address both the saved ("elect") and the lost ("reprobate"). Doesn't that make perfectly good sense?

You would think lol :thumbsup:

 

[psalms109:31]

I believe He has predestined the born again creation the new birth to salvation not the old man, the old man is headed for destruction.

We must be born again and we are born again by His word.

We must be born again until we do die with Christ and get buried with Him we will not be able to be born again to live the new life.

I will never believe who i was before Christ was is chosen before the foundation of the world I can believe the new man is and was.

We are chosen in Christ in Christ we are saved from the foundation til the end.

Jesus said we must be born again and Peter tells us where the wind comes from the word of God.

Paul would never try to convince a unbeliever that they were chosen before the foundation of the world. He wrote his letters to believers telling them they were chosen before the foundation of the wold those who were the new creation.

Jeremiah 23:
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.


1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

I believe He has predestined the born again creation the new birth to salvation not the old man, the old man is headed for destruction.

We must be born again and we are born again by His word.

We must be born again until we do die with Christ and get buried with Him we will not be able to be born again to live the new life.

I will never believe who i was before Christ was is chosen before the foundation of the world I can believe the new man is and was.

We are chosen in Christ in Christ we are saved from the foundation til the end.

Jesus said we must be born again and Peter tells us where the wind comes from the word of God.

Paul would never try to convince a unbeliever that they were chosen before the foundation of the world. He wrote His letters to believers telling them they were chosen before the foundation of the wold those who were the new creation.

Jeremiah 23:
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.


1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

With all due respect brother it seems as though you are letting your emotions/feelings blind you or at least effect your view.

 

[psalms109:31]

With all due respect brother it seems as though you are letting your emotions/feelings blind you or at least effect your view.

That is what you want to believe!

Man want to already to be alive and kicking, but all men are dead none are different. We must be born again to be saved and to do that we must die with Christ buried with Him and be reborn born again to live the new life.

The new creation the born again believer is the one chosen before the foundation of the world who we was before is dead.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Winman]

Winman you weren't being very uplifting in your response, out of curiosity why do you believe God hated Esau?

I don't believe God hated Esau, but most Calvinists do, and they will cite Romans 9:13 for this view.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Most Calvinists would quote these scriptures to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election. They believe God chose to save Jacob, and chose to pass over Esau, not according to any works they have done, but unconditionally.

At the same time, most Calvinists will tell you God does not predestine the non-elect to hell, he simply passes over or passes by them and allows them to go to hell for their own sins. This is the subject of the OP.

But this scripture says that God hated Esau before he was ever born and ever did any evil. So, according to this interpretation, Esau did not go to hell because of his sin, but simply because God ALWAYS hated him.

And this would apply to all the non-elect, they all go to hell not because of any sin they committed, because their fate was determined before they were born, simply because God always hated them.

This is the logical conclusion of Calvinism.

Do you understand now?

Now, I don't believe election is unconditional. I believe God in his foreknowledge chooses those he foresees will believe on Jesus.

Nevertheless, this passage is not speaking of individual election, but nations. Paul's quote is from Malachi and concerns the nations of Israel and Edom.

 

[preacher4truth]

Every Bible-believer should affirm the above. How could you not? Are you suggesting God does not predestinate? The Bible clearly teaches that God has predestined people from Eternity Past. Some are going to Heaven, the rest are going to Hell. God already knows what their destiny is. How could God ignore an entire population segment? The word "double" isn't really necessary; predestination must address both the saved ("elect") and the lost ("reprobate"). Doesn't that make perfectly good sense?

Of course it makes sense, it's truth. Nice post. :thumbsup:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Nevertheless, this passage is not speaking of individual election, but nations. Paul's quote is from Malachi and concerns the nations of Israel and Edom.

Precisely:thumbs:

It has nothing to do with individual salvation.....nothing.
Rom 9:12
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
The common Reformed interpretation has Paul saying:
"the elder shall be predestined to Hell"....complete eisegesis.

 

[Skandelon]

That's the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism as I understand it, Calvinist teach that God elects us and Arminians teach God elects us after we have elected our selves

This right here sums up why I became a Calvinist and remained one for about a decade. I thought these were my two options. Who wouldn't you choose Calvinism if you believe these are your only two options?

If you have not fully vetted the much more scholarly, widely accepted, and biblically supported view known as "the corporate view of election" please do so. And NO, its cannot be rightly dismissed with the phrase, "Well, corporations are made up of individuals too," as that is a given and does not in any way even address this perspective. Westerns (both Arms and Cals) tend to look at everything individualistically (its all about me), but that is not the mindset of most the world and certainly isn't the mindset of the first century Greek.

Just something to consider as you are studying your options.

 

[Skandelon]

Edited to ask: is there a difference between "Armenian" and "non-Cal"? I see several people say non-Cal instead of Arm.

Arminians (no "e") historically along with Calvinists fall within the Western approach of interpreting this issue individualistically, rather than corporately. (at least its the most noted version from the Wesleyan perspective) For example, each read these phrase a bit differently:

"I praise God because he chose you from before the foundation of the world..."

Calvinistic interpretation: Paul is praising God because He irresistibly chose each individual follower reading his letter to become a believer and be saved before the world began.

Classical Arminianism Interpretation: Paul is praising God because He chose each individual follower reading his letter to be saved because He foresaw that they would believe before the world began.

Non-Calvinism/Corporate View: Paul, a Jewish apostle, is praising God because it has ALWAYS been God's plan to save not only the Jews, God's 'elect,' but the Gentiles as well.

We must remember that Paul, the apostles to the Gentiles, is going around starting predominately Gentile congregations and is fighting with Jews everywhere who are claiming the Gentiles are not the CHOSEN of God, and if they are to be saved they MUST become a Jew first. Paul is praising God that He chose to save Gentiles from before the foundation of the world and this is not some 'new' plan or 'new doctrine' as he was being accused of teaching. God has chosen to save whosoever will believe, whether of the Jews or the Gentiles and this has been his plan from the beginning.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

That is what you want to believe!

Man want to already to be alive and kicking, but all men are dead none are different. We must be born again to be saved and to do that we must die with Christ buried with Him and be reborn born again to live the new life.

The new creation the born again believer is the one chosen before the foundation of the world who we was before is dead.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

There has been a misunderstanding I definitely believe we are born dead or totally depraved, I meant when you said God has Chosen the old man for hell or something to that effect

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

I don't believe God hated Esau, but most Calvinists do, and they will cite Romans 9:13 for this view.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Most Calvinists would quote these scriptures to support their doctrine of Unconditional Election. They believe God chose to save Jacob, and chose to pass over Esau, not according to any works they have done, but unconditionally.

At the same time, most Calvinists will tell you God does not predestine the non-elect to hell, he simply passes over or passes by them and allows them to go to hell for their own sins. This is the subject of the OP.

But this scripture says that God hated Esau before he was ever born and ever did any evil. So, according to this interpretation, Esau did not go to hell because of his sin, but simply because God ALWAYS hated him.

And this would apply to all the non-elect, they all go to hell not because of any sin they committed, because their fate was determined before they were born, simply because God always hated them.

This is the logical conclusion of Calvinism.

Do you understand now?

Now, I don't believe election is unconditional. I believe God in his foreknowledge chooses those he foresees will believe on Jesus.

Nevertheless, this passage is not speaking of individual election, but nations. Paul's quote is from Malachi and concerns the nations of Israel and Edom.

Actually I am a Calvinist and would affirm everything you said, I was just curious as to how a non-cal/ arminian interprets this verse

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Arminians (no "e") historically along with Calvinists fall within the Western approach of interpreting this issue individualistically, rather than corporately. (at least its the most noted version from the Wesleyan perspective) For example, each read these phrase a bit differently:

"I praise God because he chose you from before the foundation of the world..."

Calvinistic interpretation: Paul is praising God because He irresistibly chose each individual follower reading his letter to become a believer and be saved before the world began.

Classical Arminianism Interpretation: Paul is praising God because He chose each individual follower reading his letter to be saved because He foresaw that they would believe before the world began.

Non-Calvinism/Corporate View: Paul, a Jewish apostle, is praising God because it has ALWAYS been God's plan to save not only the Jews, God's 'elect,' but the Gentiles as well.

We must remember that Paul, the apostles to the Gentiles, is going around starting predominately Gentile congregations and is fighting with Jews everywhere who are claiming the Gentiles are not the CHOSEN of God, and if they are to be saved they MUST become a Jew first. Paul is praising God that He chose to save Gentiles from before the foundation of the world and this is not some 'new' plan or 'new doctrine' as he was being accused of teaching. God has chosen to save whosoever will believe, whether of the Jews or the Gentiles and this has been his plan from the beginning.

No offense intended but your cooperate view sounds exactly like Calvinism or vice versa

 

[psalms109:31]

There has been a misunderstanding I definitely believe we are born dead or totally depraved, I meant when you said God has Chosen the old man for hell or something to that effect

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Galatians
14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

I was headed for destruction I was dead in sin and Jesus actually saved me, being in Christ I became a new creation.

God word woke me up from the dead to let me see who I really was dead in sin. The old man needed to die to be buried with Christ for me to be raised again to live the new life in Christ. To become a new creation. I have been born again through the living and enduring word of God

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To answer your questions most Calvinist I know including myself believe in both predestination and election, I agree with you they would have to believe in both, and that was a good point about the dodgeball illustration. That's the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism as I understand it, Calvinist teach that God elects us and Arminians teach God elects us after we have elected our selves, which I personally see as salvation by works, but that's just my opinion. To disagree I would say Arminianism is calvanism in disguise but I suppose I am biased.
Edit: Calvinist teach that God elects us based upon nothing that we have or will do(else you fall into salvation by works).

Ok...so what is predestination in your book?

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.


Romans 4:
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

God does not believe trusting in Him is a work, but He works in us through His word for us to trust in Him, that is why there is not one who does not listen and learn from Him will come! If you don't listen and learn there is nothing you have to trust in.