Double Double Toil and Trouble

[Skandelon]

Your interpretation cannot be correct,

I didn't provide you an interpretation, just a verbatim quote...it seemed to be the quote you were having trouble with.

because if God unconditionally imputes Adam's sin to all men, then likewise righteousness must be unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus one act of righteousness. You MUST treat both halves of the verses here equally, that is the form of argument Paul is using.

Ok, I think I see the problem. There are two different forms of Righteousness addressed by Paul.

1. Righteousness by Law/works/merit (unattainable)
2. Righteousness by Grace through Faith (attainable)

Man, regardless of their age, has FAILED in every capacity to attain 1.

Paul taught that everyone "alike are all under the power of sin....Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Will babies who die be declared righteous in God's sight by their works of the law, or their innocence from not breaking of the moral code? NO. NNE WILL ATTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS BY MERIT OR THEIR OWN INNOCENCE.

There is ONLY one way to be saved...by Grace. God must grace a baby just like he has to grace a mentally handicapped person or you and I. It's only by Grace and the atoning work of Christ, not by innocence or anything having to do with merit and law.

 

[Winman]

Winman, also, it needs to be noted that while we are born condemned in accordance with the demands of the law:

Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous (not even babies), not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.​

That is the BAD NEWS. The Good News comes in the next several verses of this chapter, and that is the new which you and I celebrate and agree upon. Calvinists take the passage above to negate our ability to attain the Good News Paul goes on to describe in verses 21 and following. As my signature indicates, they take the biblical teaching regarding our condemnation and inability to attain righteousness by law and apply it to their belief that man is also unable to attain righteousness by faith.

Skan, scripture also tells us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Now you have a "seeming" contradiction. Romans tells us that all men have sinned, and Romans 9:11 tells us babies have not sinned.

How can these BOTH be true and not a contradiction?

The answer is Age of Accountability. The scripture shows God does not impute sin to babies because they do not understand right from wrong.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

When the Jews sinned in the wilderness, God cursed them so that they would all die in the wilderness (except Caleb and Joshua who did not sin). However, God allowed all the children to go in (which is a figure of heaven) because they did not know between good and evil "in that day".

I could show you half a dozen other scriptures that shows God does not impute sin to children until they mature and understand right from wrong.

This explains perfectly how Jacob and Esau had done no evil, and yet the scriptures can say "for all have sinned" The scriptures are speaking of men, not babies.

Babies are innocent until they mature. When they mature and know right from wrong and willingly sin, they become accountable and spiritually die.

This is exactly what Paul said in Romans 7;

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul had just said in verse 7 that he would have not known sin, except for the law. He would have not known lust, except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.

So Paul is speaking of learning the law as a young Jewish man. When he learned the law, he became accountable. He was convicted of his sins and spiritually died.

This is traditionally what the Jews believe. Jews believe a young man learns the law at age 13 (12 for girls) and this makes him accountable before God.
This is the Bar (and Bat) Mitzvah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah

This has MUCH support throughout scripture.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Scripture tells us that Jesus "knew from the beginning who believed not". If Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe, then by simple process of elimination he also knew from the beginning who would believe. ...

Do I understand correctly then, that you affirm a "double" predestination?

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

This is hopeless :tear:

 

[Winman]

I didn't provide you an interpretation, just a verbatim quote...it seemed to be the quote you were having trouble with.



Ok, I think I see the problem. There are two different forms of Righteousness addressed by Paul.

1. Righteousness by Law/works/merit (unattainable)
2. Righteousness by Grace through Faith (attainable)

Man, regardless of their age, has FAILED in every capacity to attain 1.

Paul taught that everyone "alike are all under the power of sin....Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Will babies who die be declared righteous in God's sight by their works of the law, or their innocence from not breaking of the moral code? NO. NNE WILL ATTAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS BY MERIT OR THEIR OWN INNOCENCE.

There is ONLY one way to be saved...by Grace. God must grace a baby just like he has to grace a mentally handicapped person or you and I. It's only by Grace and the atoning work of Christ, not by innocence or anything having to do with merit and law.

No Skan, Romans 5:18 MUST teach Universalism if sin is UNCONDTIONALLY imputed to men as Original Sin teaches. If Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Jesus's righteousness must also be uncondtionally imputed to all men. This is the #1 favorite scripture of Universalists.

And if sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then the Universalists are correct, and all men will be saved because of Jesus's one act of righteousness.

But again, what Paul is really explaining is that Adam and Jesus both established a LEGAL PRECEDENT. Adam set the Legal Precedent for all that sin, Jesus set the Legal Precedent for those who trust God to save them.

In common law legal systems, a precedent or authority is a principle or rule established in a previous legal case that is either binding on or persuasive for a court or other tribunal when deciding subsequent cases with similar issues or facts. The general principle in common law legal systems is that similar cases should be decided so as to give similar and predictable outcomes, and the principle of precedent is the mechanism by which that goal is attained. Black's Law Dictionary defines "precedent" as a "rule of law established for the first time by a court for a particular type of case and thereafter referred to in deciding similar cases."[1] Common law precedent is a third kind of law, on equal footing with statutory law (statutes and codes enacted by legislative bodies), and regulatory law (regulations promulgated by executive branch agencies).

Read this until you understand it and go back and read Romans 5. It will suddenly make perfect sense.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan, scripture also tells us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.

And?

Will that save their souls? Will the fact that they didn't commit a 'evil' deed get them to heaven? Will they attain righteousness by the merit of their lack of 'evil' doing? Will they, the babies, attain righteousness through the law based approach?

They are not condemned under grace, no. But as far as the law goes, no one can make it that way...no one EVER COULD. That is what the law revealed, it revealed that path is a dead end. Babies won't get in on that path either.

 

[Skandelon]

Let's try this from a different vantage point:

No one can get to heaven unless they are righteous, right?

Is a baby born righteous? Is a baby born deserving to go to heaven? Is a baby born as one who has earned the rewards prepared for the Children of God?

OR does that baby need the righteousness of Christ? Does that baby need Jesus too?

I think your answers to this will tell us a lot about the real issue...

 

[Winman]

Do I understand correctly then, that you affirm a "double" predestination?

No, because I do not believe what God foreknows must be determined as most do.

If a man trusts Jesus sometime in his lifetime, God always foreknew it.

If a man never trusts Jesus in his lifetime, God always foreknew it.

But what God foreknew does not determine what that man will choose, only God will always infallibly know what that man will choose.

It is getting late, but I can come back tomorrow and show scripture I believe supports what I just said.

 

[Winman]

Let's try this from a different vantage point:

No one can get to heaven unless they are righteous, right?

Is a baby born righteous? Is a baby born deserving to go to heaven? Is a baby born as one who has earned the rewards prepared for the Children of God?

OR does that baby need the righteousness of Christ? Does that baby need Jesus too?

I think your answers to this will tell us a lot about the real issue...

According to Ecc 7:29 all men are born upright or righteous.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Note the word "they", that is very important. It points back to "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Babies who die are not lost. Jesus himself showed this;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

In Matthew 18 particularly, Jesus placed a little child in the midst of the disciples and told them they must be converted and become as little children (plural) to enter the kindgom of heaven.

Do you think Jesus was telling the disciples to become wicked sinners?

Jesus said to be careful not to offend little children, as their angels do ALWAYS behold the face of his Father in heaven.

Does that sound like he is describing sinners?

Then Jesus tells a story of a man with 100 sheep. NONE are lost. One goes astray, and he searches and finds it. He rejoices over this one lost sheep more than the 99 sheep that "went not astray" and "which need no repentance"

Does Jesus know proper doctrine Skan? Why would Jesus speak of persons who cannot possibly exist?

Go to Luke 15, none of the sheep were lost at first, none of the silver pieces were lost at first, and the prodigal son was not lost at first.

But note the elder son, he NEVER sinned, and was NEVER lost. I didn't say this, JESUS DID.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Here the elder son claimed NEVER to have sinned. Did the father rebuke him or correct him? NO, the father called him SON and said, THOU ART EVER WITH ME. This boy was NEVER separated from his father by sin.

Note that he contrasts the elder son to the prodigal, only the prodigal was DEAD and LOST.

But note also that the prodigal son is now alive AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin, then no man could be alive again, but this is what Jesus said twice.

So why would Jesus tell us about an elder son who NEVER sinned? If OS is true, no such person has ever, or will ever exist. Yet Jesus himself told us these many examples of 99 persons who never went astray and need no repentance, and the elder son who NEVER sinned.

Original Sin is false doctrine Skan.

 

[Winman]

This is hopeless :tear:

No, it is just that you have never heard this before. Look up all the scripture I show, I am not making any of this up. Read and see for yourself.

 

[franklinmonroe]

No, because I do not believe what God foreknows must be determined as most do.

Oh, OK. Thanks for making that more clear.

If a man trusts Jesus sometime in his lifetime, God always foreknew it.

If a man never trusts Jesus in his lifetime, God always foreknew it.

But what God foreknew does not determine what that man will choose, only God will always infallibly know what that man will choose. ...

I think I might agree. But then, how do you understand "predestination"?

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

No, it is just that you have never heard this before. Look up all the scripture I show, I am not making any of this up. Read and see for yourself.

Why do you assume I've never heard this before? I've studied Arminianism and all things anti Calvinist to sharpen myself. Anyway, you have been shown scripture that very clearly teaches everyone is guilty and deserves hell the only problem is you reject it because you don't feel it should be that way

 

[Winman]

Oh, OK. Thanks for making that more clear.


I think I might agree. But then, how do you understand "predestination"?

Well, I am no expert on that, but all the predestination verses apply to the elect, and do not concern being saved, but being conformed to the image of Jesus, or predestinated to the adoption as sons...

Like I said, not an expert at all on predestination whatsoever.

I need to get to bed, have to get up early tomorrow. But I will try to answer any questions you ask me tomorrow when I get home.

Have a good night.

 

[Winman]

Why do you assume I've never heard this before? I've studied Arminianism and all things anti Calvinist to sharpen myself. Anyway, you have been shown scripture that very clearly teaches everyone is guilty and deserves hell the only problem is you reject it because you don't feel it should be that way

I agree that all MEN are guilty of sin, but scripture itself tells us Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.

I believe all men are born upright, but all men who reach maturity and understand right from wrong will surely sin.

But I do not believe aborted babies, or very little children who die are sinners. Tomorrow I will show you more scripture that supports this.

And I am not an Arminian, I believe in eternal security.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

I agree that all MEN are guilty of sin, but scripture itself tells us Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.

I believe all men are born upright, but all men who reach maturity and understand right from wrong will surely sin.

But I do not believe aborted babies, or very little children who die are sinners. Tomorrow I will show you more scripture that supports this.

And I am not an Arminian, I believe in eternal security.

I agree they had done no evil (obviously lol) however they are still condemned because of Adam. I'm not saying they go to hell but there is none good they are still guilty. I apologize if I insinuated you were an arminian I know your preservation of the saints position, which I actually would be intrested in you explaining perhaps in a future thread.

 

[Rippon]

And I am not an Arminian, I believe in eternal security.

Many Arminians believe in OSAS but they are still nevertheless Arminians.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalm 51:5 ESV)

According to the infallible Word of God, physically scrubbing oneself or being scrubbed with a course plant will wash away sins.
This is unambiguously stated in Psalm 51.
Psa 51:7
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
You cannot ignore this Scripture Jacob.
So....stop twisting Scripture and telling sinners that simply confessing sin and believing on Christ and repenting will wash away sin, insist the true Gospel which requires a ritual scrubbing from a hyssop plant is necessary for Salvation.

Prior to this ritual cleansing, God chastises men by breaking their bones when they sin (at least his own children).
Psa 51:8
Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

As you said to Winman:

Go on twist it I dare ya! :thumbs:

See how absurd that hermeneutic is? Take one statement in Poetic literature literally, and then ignore the other statements just two verses down?

Here's how it happens:

step1.) People assume Original Guilt (they've heard it all their life)
step 2.) The Scriptures are loaded with every conceivable statement that men choose to go astray and BECOME sinners (especially the Old Testament)
step 3.) Those who assume Original Guilt desperate for a passage which calls infants wicked see vs. 5 and their pre-conceived notions kick in.
step 4.) Knowing a literal understanding of vs. 7 and 8 would be absurd, they choose to (rightly) understand it as poetic liscence
step 5.) Because of the oft repetition, the pre-conditioning and the teachings of someone else, they ignore that same standard and apply vs. 5 literally with no justification for why it is any different than vs. 7,8.

I heard that application all my life, and believed it for most of it.......but it was absurd for me to understand vs. 5 that way then, and it is equally absurd to now.

 

[Winman]

I agree they had done no evil (obviously lol) however they are still condemned because of Adam. I'm not saying they go to hell but there is none good they are still guilty. I apologize if I insinuated you were an arminian I know your preservation of the saints position, which I actually would be intrested in you explaining perhaps in a future thread.

When the scriptures say there is "none good" it is not saying that 100% of everything men do is evil. Jesus himself said sinners do good things.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus here says that sinners love those who love them. He also says sinners do good to those who do good to them. Yes, Jesus is clearly saying it is much better to love those that hate you and do good to those who mistreat you, nevertheless it is no sin to love those that love you, and do good to those that do good to you. You SHOULD love those that love you and do good to those that do good to you.

So, when the scriptures say there is none that doeth good, it means 100% good. That is God's standard, God is perfect. That is why scripture says, For all have sinned and "come short" of the glory of God.

So, total inability is error right there, the scriptures nowhere teach men cannot believe the gospel and be saved, but the scriptures clearly teach no man can be perfect and merit eternal life.

And men are not guilty of Adam's sin, Ezekiel chapter 18 especially shows that the son shall not bear his father's sin or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Augustine just flat out got it wrong, the scriptures say the son shall not bear the sins or iniquities of his father. Millions of Christians throughout church history objected to Original Sin based on this one verse alone, but there are many other verses that argue against Original Sin. For example;

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Original Sin teaches that all men are born guilty of Adam's sin and in a state of separation from God at birth, but Peter said Christians are now RETURNED to Jesus. This would be impossible if OS is true. Another example;

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Original Sin teaches that all men are born dead in sin, but Jesus himself said when the prodigal son repented that he was ALIVE AGAIN. You must be alive once to be alive again. Jesus said this TWICE in this parable.

Also note that in all three parables in Luke 15, NONE are originally lost:

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Were any of the sheep originally lost? NO, the shepherd had 100 sheep originally, NONE were lost.

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Were any of the silver pieces originally lost? NO, the woman originally had 10 pieces of silver, NONE were lost.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Was the prodigal son originally lost? NO, he was at home with his father and older brother, he was not lost at first.

It was only when he knowingly and willingly (age of accountability) left home that he joined himself to a citizen of a far country (Satan).

But when he repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Original Sin is false doctrine plain and simple. I could show you MUCH more scripture that refutes it.

Of course, this means that Calvinism is complete error.

 

[convicted1]

Well, I am no expert on that, but all the predestination verses apply to the elect, and do not concern being saved, but being conformed to the image of Jesus, or predestinated to the adoption as sons...

Not being snarky at all, but you're 100% correct here. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: God's elect, His Sheep, are the ones who will be conformed to the image of God(Ezek. 34, Romans 8, Eph. 1). The others, the non-elect, the goats, they're left in the image of Adam, marred and fallen.

 

[psalms109:31]

Not being snarky at all, but you're 100% correct here. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: God's elect, His Sheep, are the ones who will be conformed to the image of God(Ezek. 34, Romans 8, Eph. 1). The others, the non-elect, the goats, they're left in the image of Adam, marred and fallen.

Hey brother how you are doing? You are right one day Jesus will separate the goat from His sheep at judgement, but that day has not come.

We as Jesus when we look at at the multitude should see them as sheep without a Shepard and have compassion on them.

Most people the majority of them are just sheep being lead they are not leaders. They are being lead to destruction by false teachers by anti-christ and they will pay.

The day will come for the judgement, but until then we are not here to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.