Featured Double Double Toil and Trouble

Skan, scripture also tells us that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Now you have a "seeming" contradiction. Romans tells us that all men have sinned, and Romans 9:11 tells us babies have not sinned.

How can these BOTH be true and not a contradiction?

The answer is Age of Accountability. The scripture shows God does not impute sin to babies because they do not understand right from wrong.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

When the Jews sinned in the wilderness, God cursed them so that they would all die in the wilderness (except Caleb and Joshua who did not sin). However, God allowed all the children to go in (which is a figure of heaven) because they did not know between good and evil "in that day".

I could show you half a dozen other scriptures that shows God does not impute sin to children until they mature and understand right from wrong.

This explains perfectly how Jacob and Esau had done no evil, and yet the scriptures can say "for all have sinned" The scriptures are speaking of men, not babies.

Babies are innocent until they mature. When they mature and know right from wrong and willingly sin, they become accountable and spiritually die.

This is exactly what Paul said in Romans 7;

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul had just said in verse 7 that he would have not known sin, except for the law. He would have not known lust, except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.

So Paul is speaking of learning the law as a young Jewish man. When he learned the law, he became accountable. He was convicted of his sins and spiritually died.

This is traditionally what the Jews believe. Jews believe a young man learns the law at age 13 (12 for girls) and this makes him accountable before God.
This is the Bar (and Bat) Mitzvah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah

This has MUCH support throughout scripture.

 

Do I understand correctly then, that you affirm a "double" predestination?

 

This is hopeless :tear:

 

No Skan, Romans 5:18 MUST teach Universalism if sin is UNCONDTIONALLY imputed to men as Original Sin teaches. If Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Jesus's righteousness must also be uncondtionally imputed to all men. This is the #1 favorite scripture of Universalists.

And if sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, then the Universalists are correct, and all men will be saved because of Jesus's one act of righteousness.

But again, what Paul is really explaining is that Adam and Jesus both established a LEGAL PRECEDENT. Adam set the Legal Precedent for all that sin, Jesus set the Legal Precedent for those who trust God to save them.

Read this until you understand it and go back and read Romans 5. It will suddenly make perfect sense.

 

No, because I do not believe what God foreknows must be determined as most do.

If a man trusts Jesus sometime in his lifetime, God always foreknew it.

If a man never trusts Jesus in his lifetime, God always foreknew it.

But what God foreknew does not determine what that man will choose, only God will always infallibly know what that man will choose.

It is getting late, but I can come back tomorrow and show scripture I believe supports what I just said.

 

According to Ecc 7:29 all men are born upright or righteous.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Note the word "they", that is very important. It points back to "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Babies who die are not lost. Jesus himself showed this;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

In Matthew 18 particularly, Jesus placed a little child in the midst of the disciples and told them they must be converted and become as little children (plural) to enter the kindgom of heaven.

Do you think Jesus was telling the disciples to become wicked sinners?

Jesus said to be careful not to offend little children, as their angels do ALWAYS behold the face of his Father in heaven.

Does that sound like he is describing sinners?

Then Jesus tells a story of a man with 100 sheep. NONE are lost. One goes astray, and he searches and finds it. He rejoices over this one lost sheep more than the 99 sheep that "went not astray" and "which need no repentance"

Does Jesus know proper doctrine Skan? Why would Jesus speak of persons who cannot possibly exist?

Go to Luke 15, none of the sheep were lost at first, none of the silver pieces were lost at first, and the prodigal son was not lost at first.

But note the elder son, he NEVER sinned, and was NEVER lost. I didn't say this, JESUS DID.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Here the elder son claimed NEVER to have sinned. Did the father rebuke him or correct him? NO, the father called him SON and said, THOU ART EVER WITH ME. This boy was NEVER separated from his father by sin.

Note that he contrasts the elder son to the prodigal, only the prodigal was DEAD and LOST.

But note also that the prodigal son is now alive AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin, then no man could be alive again, but this is what Jesus said twice.

So why would Jesus tell us about an elder son who NEVER sinned? If OS is true, no such person has ever, or will ever exist. Yet Jesus himself told us these many examples of 99 persons who never went astray and need no repentance, and the elder son who NEVER sinned.

Original Sin is false doctrine Skan.

 

No, it is just that you have never heard this before. Look up all the scripture I show, I am not making any of this up. Read and see for yourself.

 

Oh, OK. Thanks for making that more clear.

I think I might agree. But then, how do you understand "predestination"?

 

Why do you assume I've never heard this before? I've studied Arminianism and all things anti Calvinist to sharpen myself. Anyway, you have been shown scripture that very clearly teaches everyone is guilty and deserves hell the only problem is you reject it because you don't feel it should be that way

 

Well, I am no expert on that, but all the predestination verses apply to the elect, and do not concern being saved, but being conformed to the image of Jesus, or predestinated to the adoption as sons...

Like I said, not an expert at all on predestination whatsoever.

I need to get to bed, have to get up early tomorrow. But I will try to answer any questions you ask me tomorrow when I get home.

Have a good night.

 

I agree that all MEN are guilty of sin, but scripture itself tells us Jacob and Esau had done no evil in their mother's womb.

I believe all men are born upright, but all men who reach maturity and understand right from wrong will surely sin.

But I do not believe aborted babies, or very little children who die are sinners. Tomorrow I will show you more scripture that supports this.

And I am not an Arminian, I believe in eternal security.

 

I agree they had done no evil (obviously lol) however they are still condemned because of Adam. I'm not saying they go to hell but there is none good they are still guilty. I apologize if I insinuated you were an arminian I know your preservation of the saints position, which I actually would be intrested in you explaining perhaps in a future thread.

 

Many Arminians believe in OSAS but they are still nevertheless Arminians.

 

When the scriptures say there is "none good" it is not saying that 100% of everything men do is evil. Jesus himself said sinners do good things.

Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus here says that sinners love those who love them. He also says sinners do good to those who do good to them. Yes, Jesus is clearly saying it is much better to love those that hate you and do good to those who mistreat you, nevertheless it is no sin to love those that love you, and do good to those that do good to you. You SHOULD love those that love you and do good to those that do good to you.

So, when the scriptures say there is none that doeth good, it means 100% good. That is God's standard, God is perfect. That is why scripture says, For all have sinned and "come short" of the glory of God.

So, total inability is error right there, the scriptures nowhere teach men cannot believe the gospel and be saved, but the scriptures clearly teach no man can be perfect and merit eternal life.

And men are not guilty of Adam's sin, Ezekiel chapter 18 especially shows that the son shall not bear his father's sin or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Augustine just flat out got it wrong, the scriptures say the son shall not bear the sins or iniquities of his father. Millions of Christians throughout church history objected to Original Sin based on this one verse alone, but there are many other verses that argue against Original Sin. For example;

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Original Sin teaches that all men are born guilty of Adam's sin and in a state of separation from God at birth, but Peter said Christians are now RETURNED to Jesus. This would be impossible if OS is true. Another example;

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Original Sin teaches that all men are born dead in sin, but Jesus himself said when the prodigal son repented that he was ALIVE AGAIN. You must be alive once to be alive again. Jesus said this TWICE in this parable.

Also note that in all three parables in Luke 15, NONE are originally lost:

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Were any of the sheep originally lost? NO, the shepherd had 100 sheep originally, NONE were lost.

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Were any of the silver pieces originally lost? NO, the woman originally had 10 pieces of silver, NONE were lost.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Was the prodigal son originally lost? NO, he was at home with his father and older brother, he was not lost at first.

It was only when he knowingly and willingly (age of accountability) left home that he joined himself to a citizen of a far country (Satan).

But when he repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Original Sin is false doctrine plain and simple. I could show you MUCH more scripture that refutes it.

Of course, this means that Calvinism is complete error.

 

Not being snarky at all, but you're 100% correct here. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: God's elect, His Sheep, are the ones who will be conformed to the image of God(Ezek. 34, Romans 8, Eph. 1). The others, the non-elect, the goats, they're left in the image of Adam, marred and fallen.

 

Hey brother how you are doing? You are right one day Jesus will separate the goat from His sheep at judgement, but that day has not come.

We as Jesus when we look at at the multitude should see them as sheep without a Shepard and have compassion on them.

Most people the majority of them are just sheep being lead they are not leaders. They are being lead to destruction by false teachers by anti-christ and they will pay.

The day will come for the judgement, but until then we are not here to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.