Double Predestination

[SovereignGrace]

Most certainly He does, because He did NOT send them there, they CHOOSE to reject Jesus Christ, and a life that will end up in hell. Lay aside your Reformed theology and you will see much better, God, says the Bible, "is longsuffering towards you [scoffers and mockers], not willing that any [scoffers and mockers] should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

Wow!! God loves them that go to hell, and are recipients of His wrath! Wow. I am done here.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Wow!! God loves them that go to hell, and are recipients of His wrath! Wow. I am done here.

the Truth of the Bible does not interest you? very sad!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Firstly, God does NOT "toss", as you crudely put it, anyone into hell! Secondly, the word "hate" for Esau is not taken as "detest", but by comparison, as in "love less". Jesus says that we should "hate" our families if we wanted to follow Him. Do you think that He meant "loathe and detest", or, "love Me more", as He told John, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” (John 21:15). Psalm 106:40 is speaking about God's elect people, the Jews, "Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance". the Hebrew word "abhorred", is "תָּעַב", and means "to loathe, detest, abhor, an abomination". Whereas, when speaking of Esau in Malachi 1:3, God says, "שָׂנֵא", which is not as strong as "תָּעַב", and simply means "hate". Thirdly, Romans 9 is much misquoted by Reformers, who take words out of its context, and assume that it supports their theology. You speak of "vessels of wrath", but fail to see that it says that God is very "longsuffering" with these. "endured with much longsuffering" (verse 22). Why do you suppose this is? Could it be as we read in places like Ezekiel 18 and 33, that God wants them to "repent and believe", and get saved? Neither does it say anywhere in this chapter, that the "vessels or mercy" have been chosen before for salvation? Verse 18 is also much misquoted, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth", to show that God's mercy is "limited". Speaking of Jews and Gentiles, the two groups that make up the entire human race, Paul says, " For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32), where it is clear that God's mercy does extend to the "entire human race".

This will be my last post here, as I have asked an Admin to retire my account...

When someone stands before a judge condemned, the judge is the one who renders the verdict and sends that convicted person to hell. Those who stand before their God, the Son of God on the day of Judgment, He will render their sentence and sentence them to an eternal hell. So yes, God does send ppl to hell.

Good bye to all who I have made acquaintances with.

Willis

 

[1689Dave]

Indeed, for all believers, as this is a prayer for them. But you cannot conclude from this that Jesus did not care about all sinners, as Paul shows in 1 Timothy 2:1-6, where he says that were are to pray for ALL.

Jesus did not pray for the world. And when Paul mentions ALL men, he speaks of gentiles, not just Jews.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Jesus did not pray for the world. And when Paul mentions ALL men, he speaks of gentiles, not just Jews.

Lets see what the passage actually says:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time" (1 Timothy 2:1-6)

When Paul says, "for ALL people, for kings and ALL who are in high positions". In this context, "ALL people", like ALL in high positions, our leaders, etc, must refer to the entire human race. The whole human race, is made up of these two groups, so, either you are a Jew, or Gentile. This comprises of the entire world. So, in our present passage in 1 Timothy, says that we must pray for ALL PEOPLE, and then adds extra mention for our leaders. The ALL cannot be taken to refer to the "elect" only, but must include the entire human race, as the context clearly says. Paul says of these ALL, that God "desires ALL people (those mentioned earlier) to be saved", and that Jesus Christ, "gave himself as a ransom for ALL", again, those ALL referred to earlier. I cannot see how any honest person can place any limit here on the desire of God, for the salvation of the entire human race, which Paul says Jesus Christ was "a ransom for"? The word "ransom" is from the Greek, ἀντίλυτρον, which is defined, "what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom" (J Thayer, Greek lexicon). It is only those who will theologically use this verse, will try to force its meaning to suit their thinking, rather than allowing the Bible to speak for Itself.

 

[1689Dave]

Lets see what the passage actually says:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time" (1 Timothy 2:1-6)

When Paul says, "for ALL people, for kings and ALL who are in high positions". In this context, "ALL people", like ALL in high positions, our leaders, etc, must refer to the entire human race. The whole human race, is made up of these two groups, so, either you are a Jew, or Gentile. This comprises of the entire world. So, in our present passage in 1 Timothy, says that we must pray for ALL PEOPLE, and then adds extra mention for our leaders. The ALL cannot be taken to refer to the "elect" only, but must include the entire human race, as the context clearly says. Paul says of these ALL, that God "desires ALL people (those mentioned earlier) to be saved", and that Jesus Christ, "gave himself as a ransom for ALL", again, those ALL referred to earlier. I cannot see how any honest person can place any limit here on the desire of God, for the salvation of the entire human race, which Paul says Jesus Christ was "a ransom for"? The word "ransom" is from the Greek, ἀντίλυτρον, which is defined, "what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom" (J Thayer, Greek lexicon). It is only those who will theologically use this verse, will try to force its meaning to suit their thinking, rather than allowing the Bible to speak for Itself.

But a Jew would understand ALL people to include gentiles and not Jews only. Besides Jesus told the pharisees the reason they did not believe was because they were not his sheep. And that he gave his life for the sheep. Meaning he did not die for them.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

But a Jew would understand ALL people to include gentiles and not Jews only. Besides Jesus told the pharisees the reason they did not believe was because they were not his sheep. And that he gave his life for the sheep. Meaning he did not die for them.

Dave, I think that you are imposing your theology into the Word of God, and being very selective in what you quote from it. The passage I have quoted from 1 Timothy is very clear that God desires that salvation of the entire human race, and yet the Reformed will still argue against the Bible! I have asked any Reformed or Calvinist to explain what John 3:16-18 means, because I believe this small passage does away with the Reformed understanding of election and predestination. I have not had any takers for this? Do you wish to try this?

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, I think that you are imposing your theology into the Word of God, and being very selective in what you quote from it. The passage I have quoted from 1 Timothy is very clear that God desires that salvation of the entire human race, and yet the Reformed will still argue against the Bible! I have asked any Reformed or Calvinist to explain what John 3:16-18 means, because I believe this small passage does away with the Reformed understanding of election and predestination. I have not had any takers for this? Do you wish to try this?

If God desired the salvation of all, all would be saved. God's power is limitless. But he does save all peoples, not just Jews.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

If God desired the salvation of all, all would be saved. God's power is limitless. But he does save all peoples, not just Jews.

so you saying that Paul, and even Jesus got it wrong? WOW, Just WOW!!!

 

[1689Dave]

so you saying that Paul, and even Jesus got it wrong? WOW, Just WOW!!!

I'm saying you got it wrong. Jesus is the savior of the world, not just the Jews as in the Old Covenant era.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I'm saying you got it wrong. Jesus is the savior of the world, not just the Jews as in the Old Covenant era.

If I got it wrong, then tell me how so from 1 Timothy 2:1-6, and John 3:16-18. Don't just say I am wrong, but don't back this up with hard evidence.

 

[1689Dave]

If I got it wrong, then tell me how so from 1 Timothy 2:1-6, and John 3:16-18. Don't just say I am wrong, but don't back this up with hard evidence.

All men and the world = no longer Jews only.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

All men and the world = no longer Jews only.

so, then this must be the entire human race

 

[1689Dave]

so, then this must be the entire human race

God's promise to Abraham encompasses the whole world. God fulfilled this with the New Covenant and will complete it in the saved world of the New Heavens and Earth.

 

[Yeshua1]

So are you saying God willed that Adam choose death?

No, I would state it as God had already included in his will what Adam would choose to do!

 

[The Archangel]

I have asked any Reformed or Calvinist to explain what John 3:16-18 means, because I believe this small passage does away with the Reformed understanding of election and predestination. I have not had any takers for this?

The reason you have had no takers is that it is not a fair question. The Bible consists of more than these 3 verses and, therefore, our theology comes from more than these three verses. Your myopic obsession which has led to some rather "interesting" and some quite comical comments (especially when you reference Greek and Hebrew) has led you to do violence to actual theology and the text of scripture itself.

For instance: John 3:16-18 does not exist in a vacuum. Perhaps you've missed the preceding discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus where Jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again." Not to mention that the Greek does not say "whosoever believeth;" it says "all the ones believing." The Greek makes no claim in John 3:16 to how they became believers or who is eligible to come to faith in Christ.

Keep chasing your windmills.

The Archangel

 

[InTheLight]

I'm saying you got it wrong. Jesus is the savior of the world, not just the Jews as in the Old Covenant era.

So, in the Old Covenant era, when Psalm 14 was written, was that written about Jews only? Why or why not?

 

[1689Dave]

So, in the Old Covenant era, when Psalm 14 was written, was that written about Jews only? Why or why not?

PS 53 and 14 are nearly identical and together they speak of the reprobate heathen afflicting God's elect Israel.

 

[TCassidy]

Putting on my Admin hat.

This thread has outlived its usefulness. It will be closed sometime this afternoon.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The reason you have had no takers is that it is not a fair question. The Bible consists of more than these 3 verses and, therefore, our theology comes from more than these three verses. Your myopic obsession which has led to some rather "interesting" and some quite comical comments (especially when you reference Greek and Hebrew) has led you to do violence to actual theology and the text of scripture itself.

For instance: John 3:16-18 does not exist in a vacuum. Perhaps you've missed the preceding discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus where Jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again." Not to mention that the Greek does not say "whosoever believeth;" it says "all the ones believing." The Greek makes no claim in John 3:16 to how they became believers or who is eligible to come to faith in Christ.

Keep chasing your windmills.

The Archangel

John 3:16-18 may be just three verses, but this is still the Infallible Word of God, that is teaching some Truths on God's love for the human race and their salvation. You criticize me for mentioning Hebrew and Greek, and yet you say, "Not to mention that the Greek does not say "whosoever believeth;" it says "all the ones believing."", which is complete rubbish because the Greek does NOT say this! Here is the Greek text, "ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον", which very literally says, "that everyone who continues to believe in Him, may not perish, but have eternal live". "πιστεύων", is here in the present, continuance tense, which requires an on-going believing.

the YOU that Jesus uses with Nicodemus, is in the plural, ὑμᾶς, replying to Nicodemus' use of "we", in verse 2, which could also include the other members of the Jewish Council. Which means that Jesus was saying that they ALL needed to be born-again, or "from above" (γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν)