Dr. Chafer on Covenant Theology

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Pay close attention to the key words, "necessarily, logically, true and real", and you should be able to figure that out.

:thumbs:

Now who is being evasive..... :laugh:

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, thanks for humoring me. Then who do you think holds to these outlined beliefs?

To benjamin, its basically ANY here who would hold to the Doctrines of grace as held by calvinist, as I think he and many other put ALL Cals into being High/Hyper cal views"Determinists"

 

[Yeshua1]

That requires one to maintain a certain belief system about the way the world will end. Im really not concerned nor convinced.

that is JUST part of his work, he does a really nice job witht he scriptures and why inerrant/inspired, as well as the truth of the gospel!

Also good for church governments, how to view the Lord, trinity etc

good stuuf, even if you disregard the eschatology!

 

[OldRegular]

More from Dr. Chafer:

ROMAN RESIDUARY -- It is common practice with some theologians to brand millennialism as a modern theory, forgetting that, in its restored form, even justification by faith and millennialism were taught in the New Testament and were therefore the belief of the early Church. These doctrines, like all other essential truths, went into obscurity during the Dark Ages.

The Reformers did not restore all features of doctrine, and along with justification by faith retained the Romish notion that the Church is the Kingdom, fulfilling the Davidic covenant, and appointed to conquer the world by bringing it under the authority of the Church. This idea has prevailed in spite of the clear, uncomplicated testimony of the New Testament that this dispensation must end in unprecedented wickedness (IV:257).

Where O Where does the New Testament say:

that this dispensation must end in unprecedented wickedness

 

[OldRegular]

More from Dr. Chafer:

ROMAN RESIDUARY -- It is common practice with some theologians to brand millennialism as a modern theory, forgetting that, in its restored form, even justification by faith and millennialism were taught in the New Testament and were therefore the belief of the early Church. These doctrines, like all other essential truths, went into obscurity during the Dark Ages.

The Reformers did not restore all features of doctrine, and along with justification by faith retained the Romish notion that the Church is the Kingdom, fulfilling the Davidic covenant, and appointed to conquer the world by bringing it under the authority of the Church. This idea has prevailed in spite of the clear, uncomplicated testimony of the New Testament that this dispensation must end in unprecedented wickedness (IV:257).

Dr. Chafer tells us:

this dispensation must end in unprecedented wickedness .

Here we have a sad indictment by Dr. Chafer, founder of the Dallas Seminary, of the work of Jesus Christ. Is the work of Jesus Christ and His Church an utter failure?

Jesus Christ tells us: John 12:46. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Before the coming of Jesus Christ, His death for His Church and the elect of God, most of the world lived in darkness, sin, and death. I would say, from what history tells us, that the world was characterized by unprecedented wickedness.

Now 2000 years after the coming of Jesus Christ Dr. Chafer tells us that this interruption in God's plan for Israel is what? A lost cause! Wasted! A failure! Apparently, since he believes this "dispensation of the Grace of God" will end in

unprecedented wickedness.

Well I can't get into his mind so perhaps some who are classic dispensationalists can tell us just what Dr. Chafer means!

 

[Yeshua1]

More from Dr. Chafer:



Dr. Chafer tells us:

Here we have a sad indictment by Dr. Chafer, founder of the Dallas Seminary, of the work of Jesus Christ. Is the work of Jesus Christ and His Church an utter failure?

Jesus Christ tells us: John 12:46. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Before the coming of Jesus Christ, His death for His Church and the elect of God, most of the world lived in darkness, sin, and death. I would say, from what history tells us, that the world was characterized by unprecedented wickedness.

Now 2000 years after the coming of Jesus Christ Dr. Chafer tells us that this interruption in God's plan for Israel is what? A lost cause! Wasted! A failure! Apparently, since he believes this "dispensation of the Grace of God" will end in Well I can't get into his mind so perhaps some who are classic dispensationalists can tell us just what Dr. Chafer means!

Don't know about that!

was the Roamn Empire a paragon of virtue?

Didn't the Holy spirit say that in the last days, it would be getter worse and worse in society, as man would rebel against god and sound teaching?

JUST because the World system will be getting worse and worse does NOT mean jesusn failed, as he has NOT yet set up his sytsem in its fullness upon this earth!

 

[OldRegular]

Don't know about that!

was the Roamn Empire a paragon of virtue?

The Roman Empire fell after Jesus Christ established the Church. This was as prophesied in Daniel 7.

Didn't the Holy spirit say that in the last days, it would be getter worse and worse in society, as man would rebel against god and sound teaching?

A reference would be beneficial! That being said man has been in rebellion against God since Adam.

JUST because the World system will be getting worse and worse does NOT mean jesusn failed, as he has NOT yet set up his sytsem in its fullness upon this earth!

But Chafer says that the Church had no impact on the world system. That is false.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Roman Empire fell after Jesus Christ established the Church. This was as prophesied in Daniel 7.



A reference would be beneficial! That being said man has been in rebellion against God since Adam.



But Chafer says that the Church had no impact on the world system. That is false.

the lord has been calling in among sinners his chosen ones in jesus since jesus ascended... the Church is salt to its society, but sinners keep on sinning, and world systems NOT under jesus right now, as world is being permitted to be run by Evel one now...

When jesus returns to earth, THEN are all systems/Kingdoms under his rule, and the "new Worlsd order" begins in earnest!

 

[Bronconagurski]

More from Dr. Chafer:



Dr. Chafer tells us:

Here we have a sad indictment by Dr. Chafer, founder of the Dallas Seminary, of the work of Jesus Christ. Is the work of Jesus Christ and His Church an utter failure?

Jesus Christ tells us: John 12:46. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Before the coming of Jesus Christ, His death for His Church and the elect of God, most of the world lived in darkness, sin, and death. I would say, from what history tells us, that the world was characterized by unprecedented wickedness.

Now 2000 years after the coming of Jesus Christ Dr. Chafer tells us that this interruption in God's plan for Israel is what? A lost cause! Wasted! A failure! Apparently, since he believes this "dispensation of the Grace of God" will end in Well I can't get into his mind so perhaps some who are classic dispensationalists can tell us just what Dr. Chafer means!

Here is more of the section. BTW, all dispensations end in man's failure, not Gods, including the millenial reign of Christ. Satan is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will deceive man again in the final rebellion against God, thus proving the depravity of man once again. These people lived with Christ upon the earth, yet turned against Him.

Chapter XIII
INTRODUCTION TO ESCHATOLOGY
This the last major division of Systematic Theology is concerned with things to come and should not be limited to things which are future at some particular time in human history, but should contemplate all that was future in character at the time its revelation was given. The time word now is ever moving and things yet future at the present time will soon have passed into history. A worthy Eschatology must embrace all prediction whether fulfilled or unfulfilled at a given time. In other words, a true Eschatology attempts to account for all the prophecy set forth in the Bible.
The neglect of the prophetic Scriptures on the part of theologians is all but complete, except for a limited survey of the intermediate state, the resurrection of the body, a passing reference to the second advent, and the eternal state. Theological writers, in some instances, have confessed their lack of preparation to deal with Bible prediction. In the opening of his treatise on the second advent (Systematic Theology, III, 790), Dr. Charles Hodge states: “The subject cannot be adequately discussed without taking a survey of all the prophetic teachings of the Scriptures both of the Old Testament and of the New. This task cannot be satisfactorily accomplished by any one who has not made the study of the prophecies a specialty. The author, knowing that he has no such qualifications for the work, purposes to confine himself in a great measure to a historical survey of the different schemes of interpreting the Scriptural prophecies relating to this subject.” To the same end, Dr. B. B. Warfield in an article on the millennium (Princeton Theological Review, 1904, II, 599-617), builds his argument on the untenable idea that there is no reference to such an age anywhere save in “so obscure a portion” as Revelation 20, without the slightest recognition of a covenanted kingdom for Israel with the fulfillment of every earthly promise. When, how, and where will these covenants be experienced? To Dr. Warfield the present blessing of saints in heaven is the millennium. He writes: “The thousand years, thus, is the whole of this present dispensation, which again is placed before us in its entirety, but looked at now relatively not to what is passing on earth but to what is enjoyed ‘in Paradise’” (Biblical Doctrines, p. 649). To him, also, Satan bound and then loosed again is a present experience concurrently progressing: “But while the saints abide in their security Satan, though thus ‘bound’ relatively to them, is loosed relatively to the world–and that is what is meant by the statement in verse 3c that ‘he must be loosed for a little time’” (Ibid., p. 656). According to this idea, Satan being bound in relation to believers cannot reach them; yet the Apostle declares, “Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Eph_6:10-12) . Thus this greatest of authorities on certain aspects of theology evinces an incomprehensible inattention to the most elementary prophetic revelations. Similarly, Dr. R. L. Dabney, the honored theologian of the South, when asked by a former student whether certain interpretations of prophecy were correct, replied, “Probably you are right. I have never looked into the subject.” It is needless to point out that the attitude of these and many other theologians has been an insuperable barrier to the so-called educated ministry, which precludes any attempt on their part to investigate the field of Biblical prophecy. It is natural to conclude that a truth is of little importance if the great teachers of the church ignore it. However, even the teacher himself reflects his own training with its determination to disregard all else than that peculiar to the Reformation. Over against this is the statement by Dr. I. A. Dorner: “There can be no doubt that Holy Scripture contains a rich abundance of truths and views, which have yet to be expounded and made the common possession of the Church …” (History of Protestant Theology, II, 4).
Such indifference or resistance is hardly justified in the light of the fact that over one-fourth of the books of the Bible are avowedly prophetic, and, in the actual text of all the Scriptures, at least one-fifth was prediction at the time it was written. A portion of Bible prophecy is now fulfilled, and attention will be given to the distinction between fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecy.
In His Upper Room Discourse, the Savior, having announced the peculiar teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit in the present age, goes on to declare what precise truths the Spirit will teach (Joh_16:12-15), and places “things to come” as first on that list of themes. It is safe to say that no modern teacher of the Bible, be he even an extremist in his disproportionate emphasis on prophecy, would assume to place “things to come” as first among those important themes, and many theologians would not include this subject at all. The supreme emphasis which Christ places upon this aspect of truth should not be overlooked. Incidentally, Christ has implied in this statement that none will comprehend prophecy who are not taught by the Holy Spirit. This seems to be true to a large degree in Christian experience. Similarly, the Apostle Paul, it is disclosed, taught the deeper and more intricate aspects of prediction to his young converts. This is demonstrated in his ministry in Thessalonica where he was permitted to remain but three or four weeks and to which place it is never recorded that he was able to return. In the limited time of his stay in that city he was confronted with heathenism, but was able to make contacts with individuals and not only to lead them to Christ but to teach them enough truth that he could afterwards write the two Thessalonian epistles to them with the expectation that they would understand them. In the second epistle, where reference is made to the “falling away,” the man of sin who will sit in the restored Jewish temple declaring himself to be God, and the destruction of the man of sin by the glorious appearing of Christ, Paul declares, “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” Assuredly no clearer evidence could be desired to establish the truth that both Christ and Paul gave to the right understanding of prophecy a foremost place. There is no license granted here for a teacher to be a faddist in prophetic truth, nor is there any permission granted to men to ignore the field of prophetic revelation.
It is a common practice with some theologians to brand chiliasm as a modern theory, not remembering that, in its restored form, even justification by faith is comparatively a modern truth. Both justification by faith and chiliasm are taught in the New Testament and were therefore the belief of the early church. These doctrines, like all other essential truths, went into obscurity during the Dark Ages. The Reformers did not restore all features of doctrine and along with justification by faith they retained the Romish notion that the church is the kingdom, fulfilling the Davidic covenant, and appointed to conquer the world by bringing it under the authority of the church. This idea has prevailed in spite of the clear, uncomplicated testimony of the New Testament that this age must end in unprecedented wickedness.
Precisely what was involved in the sealing of prophecy until the time of the end as was announced by Daniel, “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (Dan_12:9), may not be wholly understood. However, it is significant that the knowledge of prophecy has been increased in the past half century.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is more of the section. BTW, all dispensations end in man's failure, not Gods, including the millenial reign of Christ. Satan is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will deceive man again in the final rebellion against God, thus proving the depravity of man once again. These people lived with Christ upon the earth, yet turned against Him.

Chapter XIII
INTRODUCTION TO ESCHATOLOGY
This the last major division of Systematic Theology is concerned with things to come and should not be limited to things which are future at some particular time in human history, but should contemplate all that was future in character at the time its revelation was given. The time word now is ever moving and things yet future at the present time will soon have passed into history. A worthy Eschatology must embrace all prediction whether fulfilled or unfulfilled at a given time. In other words, a true Eschatology attempts to account for all the prophecy set forth in the Bible.
The neglect of the prophetic Scriptures on the part of theologians is all but complete, except for a limited survey of the intermediate state, the resurrection of the body, a passing reference to the second advent, and the eternal state. Theological writers, in some instances, have confessed their lack of preparation to deal with Bible prediction. In the opening of his treatise on the second advent (Systematic Theology, III, 790), Dr. Charles Hodge states: “The subject cannot be adequately discussed without taking a survey of all the prophetic teachings of the Scriptures both of the Old Testament and of the New. This task cannot be satisfactorily accomplished by any one who has not made the study of the prophecies a specialty. The author, knowing that he has no such qualifications for the work, purposes to confine himself in a great measure to a historical survey of the different schemes of interpreting the Scriptural prophecies relating to this subject.” To the same end, Dr. B. B. Warfield in an article on the millennium (Princeton Theological Review, 1904, II, 599-617), builds his argument on the untenable idea that there is no reference to such an age anywhere save in “so obscure a portion” as Revelation 20, without the slightest recognition of a covenanted kingdom for Israel with the fulfillment of every earthly promise. When, how, and where will these covenants be experienced? To Dr. Warfield the present blessing of saints in heaven is the millennium. He writes: “The thousand years, thus, is the whole of this present dispensation, which again is placed before us in its entirety, but looked at now relatively not to what is passing on earth but to what is enjoyed ‘in Paradise’” (Biblical Doctrines, p. 649). To him, also, Satan bound and then loosed again is a present experience concurrently progressing: “But while the saints abide in their security Satan, though thus ‘bound’ relatively to them, is loosed relatively to the world–and that is what is meant by the statement in verse 3c that ‘he must be loosed for a little time’” (Ibid., p. 656). According to this idea, Satan being bound in relation to believers cannot reach them; yet the Apostle declares, “Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Eph_6:10-12) . Thus this greatest of authorities on certain aspects of theology evinces an incomprehensible inattention to the most elementary prophetic revelations. Similarly, Dr. R. L. Dabney, the honored theologian of the South, when asked by a former student whether certain interpretations of prophecy were correct, replied, “Probably you are right. I have never looked into the subject.” It is needless to point out that the attitude of these and many other theologians has been an insuperable barrier to the so-called educated ministry, which precludes any attempt on their part to investigate the field of Biblical prophecy. It is natural to conclude that a truth is of little importance if the great teachers of the church ignore it. However, even the teacher himself reflects his own training with its determination to disregard all else than that peculiar to the Reformation. Over against this is the statement by Dr. I. A. Dorner: “There can be no doubt that Holy Scripture contains a rich abundance of truths and views, which have yet to be expounded and made the common possession of the Church …” (History of Protestant Theology, II, 4).
Such indifference or resistance is hardly justified in the light of the fact that over one-fourth of the books of the Bible are avowedly prophetic, and, in the actual text of all the Scriptures, at least one-fifth was prediction at the time it was written. A portion of Bible prophecy is now fulfilled, and attention will be given to the distinction between fulfilled and unfulfilled prophecy.
In His Upper Room Discourse, the Savior, having announced the peculiar teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit in the present age, goes on to declare what precise truths the Spirit will teach (Joh_16:12-15), and places “things to come” as first on that list of themes. It is safe to say that no modern teacher of the Bible, be he even an extremist in his disproportionate emphasis on prophecy, would assume to place “things to come” as first among those important themes, and many theologians would not include this subject at all. The supreme emphasis which Christ places upon this aspect of truth should not be overlooked. Incidentally, Christ has implied in this statement that none will comprehend prophecy who are not taught by the Holy Spirit. This seems to be true to a large degree in Christian experience. Similarly, the Apostle Paul, it is disclosed, taught the deeper and more intricate aspects of prediction to his young converts. This is demonstrated in his ministry in Thessalonica where he was permitted to remain but three or four weeks and to which place it is never recorded that he was able to return. In the limited time of his stay in that city he was confronted with heathenism, but was able to make contacts with individuals and not only to lead them to Christ but to teach them enough truth that he could afterwards write the two Thessalonian epistles to them with the expectation that they would understand them. In the second epistle, where reference is made to the “falling away,” the man of sin who will sit in the restored Jewish temple declaring himself to be God, and the destruction of the man of sin by the glorious appearing of Christ, Paul declares, “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” Assuredly no clearer evidence could be desired to establish the truth that both Christ and Paul gave to the right understanding of prophecy a foremost place. There is no license granted here for a teacher to be a faddist in prophetic truth, nor is there any permission granted to men to ignore the field of prophetic revelation.
It is a common practice with some theologians to brand chiliasm as a modern theory, not remembering that, in its restored form, even justification by faith is comparatively a modern truth. Both justification by faith and chiliasm are taught in the New Testament and were therefore the belief of the early church. These doctrines, like all other essential truths, went into obscurity during the Dark Ages. The Reformers did not restore all features of doctrine and along with justification by faith they retained the Romish notion that the church is the kingdom, fulfilling the Davidic covenant, and appointed to conquer the world by bringing it under the authority of the church. This idea has prevailed in spite of the clear, uncomplicated testimony of the New Testament that this age must end in unprecedented wickedness.
Precisely what was involved in the sealing of prophecy until the time of the end as was announced by Daniel, “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (Dan_12:9), may not be wholly understood. However, it is significant that the knowledge of prophecy has been increased in the past half century.

Did the early Church, following the Apostolic teaching, hold to at very least the doctrine of jesus returning to set up an earthly Kingdom, the Millinium?

that it was held pretty much that way untilAugustine and his allorgorical teachings made church the kingdom on earth?

 

[Bronconagurski]

Did the early Church, following the Apostolic teaching, hold to at very least the doctrine of jesus returning to set up an earthly Kingdom, the Millinium?

that it was held pretty much that way untilAugustine and his allorgorical teachings made church the kingdom on earth?

Despite the assertion by the preterists that Darby started the premill craze that was propagated by people like Chafer and Ryrie, the early church fathers had premill views.

Irenaeus and Justin represent two of the most outspoken premillennialists of the pre-Nicean church. Other early premillennialists included Pseudo-Barnabas,[18] Papias,[19] Methodius, Lactantius,[20] Commodianus[21] Theophilus, Tertullian,[22] Melito,[23] Hippolytus of Rome, Victorinus of Pettau [24][25] and various Gnostics groups and the Montanists. Many of these theologians and others in the early church expressed their belief in premillennialism through their acceptance of the sexta-septamillennial tradition. This belief claims that human history will continue for 6,000 years and then will enjoy Sabbath for 1,000 years (the millennial kingdom), thus all of human history will have a total of 7,000 years prior to the new creation.

One thing I have never heard answered (it probably has been, but I didn't read it) is the problem of when the book of Revelation was written for the preterists. It was written after A.D. 90 according to most traditional views, and that blows up the preterist view. I'm sure they have some obscure person to say it was written earlier, yet most of the church fathers believed otherwise.

 

[OldRegular]

the lord has been calling in among sinners his chosen ones in jesus since jesus ascended... the Church is salt to its society, but sinners keep on sinning, and world systems NOT under jesus right now, as world is being permitted to be run by Evel one now...

The world was under Satan until Jesus Christ but with His death and resurrection Satan was bound, his power was limited! That is what is so outrageous about Chafers remarks.

When jesus returns to earth, THEN are all systems/Kingdoms under his rule, and the "new Worlsd order" begins in earnest!

There will be a general resurrection of all the dead, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the New Heavens and New Earth!

 

[OldRegular]

Here is more of the section. BTW, all dispensations end in man's failure, not Gods, including the millenial reign of Christ. Satan is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will deceive man again in the final rebellion against God, thus proving the depravity of man once again. These people lived with Christ upon the earth, yet turned against Him.

Well reading Chafer's remarks one can only conclude that he believes the failure is that of the Church for which Jesus Christ died. Under Chafer's eschatology the Church as a failure is "snatched" out of the world and some fictional gospel is preached by "someone" to those "left behind"!

 

[Bronconagurski]

Well reading Chafer's remarks one can only conclude that he believes the failure is that of the Church for which Jesus Christ died. Under Chafer's eschatology the Church as a failure is "snatched" out of the world and some fictional gospel is preached by "someone" to those "left behind"!

So you are calling the 144,000 Jews that will preach in the tribulation period fictional. How can you deny that the bible says there will be 12 thousand each from the 12 tribes of Israel? Paul said God has not cast away his people, yet you deny that as well by reading into the text, so if you are gonna do that then you can't ever be wrong.

Furthemore, God doesn't raputure the church because it failed, but because judgement is getting ready to fall on all those who rejected His Son. Man, once again, fails, but the church is in glory with the Lord, and will come back to the earth during the millenial reign. How is that failing?

 

[Bronconagurski]

OR, did the church fail in the Old Testament?

Well reading Chafer's remarks one can only conclude that he believes the failure is that of the Church for which Jesus Christ died. Under Chafer's eschatology the Church as a failure is "snatched" out of the world and some fictional gospel is preached by "someone" to those "left behind"!

You always want to have your cake and eat it too. Anything to degrade the nation of Israel, huh?

 

[OldRegular]

So you are calling the 144,000 Jews that will preach in the tribulation period fictional.

What are they preaching?

 

[thomas15]

.... .....God only deals with mankind because of and through His Grace. Furthermore, I believe the truths of the Covenant of Grace are clearly taught in the Scripture. This Covenant is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead cooperate in man’s salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:

The doctrine of grace is clearly taught in the Bible. There is no covenant of grace in the Bible. Furthermore, Berkhof has an entire chapter devoted to "The different dispensations of the covenant". Go argue with him.

I hate to be a disapointment to you but I'm taking 7 credit hours in addition to my full time and part time jobs so I cannot engage you much until mid-Dec.

 

[OldRegular]

So you are calling the 144,000 Jews that will preach in the tribulation period fictional. How can you deny that the bible says there will be 12 thousand each from the 12 tribes of Israel?

Better read the passage again! There are two tribes missing!

 

[humblethinker]

Dr. Chafer would have us believe that God left His Church ignorant of indispensable truths for 1800 years until along came Darby, or was it Margaret MacDonald?

I'm not arguing the specific case either way. Regarding theology in general, what I am interested in is by what rule would we consider some idea to be non-considerable? You seem to think that if it hasn't been part of the known historical doctrine for 1800 years then the idea is not even able to be up for consideration as a legitimate belief. I'm not arguing whether you are right or wrong, (I don't mean to put words in your mouth that you wouldn't want there so please forgive me if I am... It's getting late and I'm just trying to get this idea out there :saint I'm just wanting to know what your criteria is. What about 1600 years or 1000 years? 600 or 100 years? Has all doctrine been known with certainty since the First church? Can any new idea be put up for consideration as a possible legitimate idea? If not, can you tell me when theology finally reached the point of finality, with no more possible addition of understanding to the body of legitimate theology?

 

[OldRegular]

I'm not arguing the specific case either way. Regarding theology in general, what I am interested in is by what rule would we consider some idea to be non-considerable? You seem to think that if it hasn't been part of the known historical doctrine for 1800 years then the idea is not even able to be up for consideration as a legitimate belief. I'm not arguing whether you are right or wrong, (I don't mean to put words in your mouth that you wouldn't want there so please forgive me if I am... It's getting late and I'm just trying to get this idea out there :saint I'm just wanting to know what your criteria is. What about 1600 years or 1000 years? 600 or 100 years? Has all doctrine been known with certainty since the First church? Can any new idea be put up for consideration as a possible legitimate idea? If not, can you tell me when theology finally reached the point of finality, with no more possible addition of understanding to the body of legitimate theology?

The ultimate judge of any doctrine or theology must be the Bible. For example the Bible tells me that the doctrine of "open theism" is false.

The doctrine that the Church is a "parenthesis", an interruption in God's plan for Israel, does not comport with Scripture and must be rejected. God's plan for all mankind was first revealed in Genesis. The nation Israel was simply a means God used to accomplish His redemptive purpose. The doctrine that there are two Gospels does not comport with the very clear teaching of Scripture and must be rejected.

The convoluted dispensational doctrine of eschatology, with its pre-trib Rapture and multiple resurrections [Walvoord says 5 I believe] does not comport with Scripture but if it makes them happy!!!!:applause:

The essential doctrines dealing with the person of Jesus Christ and the Trinity were developed before the complete dominance of the Roman Church. I would say that as far as essential doctrines are concerned God is not going to leave His Church ignorant for thousands of years.

Covenant theology was apparently developed by the reformers a few hundred years prior to the dispensational doctrine of Darby. Both are obviously the work of man and subject to serious error.

I don't consider myself an advocate for covenant theology as there are aspects with which I am unfamiliar and other aspects I reject. I do believe that what is called the Covenant of Grace presents God's purpose in redemption as revealed in Scripture. I would think that as a Presbyterian Chafer would believe that doctrine.

I certainly would not claim to be schooled in the doctrine of dispensationalism but I can read. However, depending on where you dwell, dispensationalism can be said to hit you in the face, especially their eschatology!