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Dr. Graham answered my letter

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Pastor Larry, I don't think BG should repent of anything you mentioned because I do not see anything wrong with what he did.
How can you not see anything wrong with a direct violation of the commands of Scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]If there was a direct violation of scripture, I would help to point it out.

His cooperation with some groups is a direct violation to the Doctrine of Separation as understood by some. I believe that understanding to be an incorrect intepretation of the relevant passages. But even if it was a correct interpretation, it is not applicable to this situation because of Separatists misunderstanding of the theological positions of those who are different from them.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Rom 16:17-18, Gal 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude, 2 Thess 3 are just a few of the many passages that address this very issue of cooperation with false teachers and apostates, compromise of the gospel, and disobedient brothers. '

The fact that you differ from the separatists does not make them wrong. They are correct. When the Bible says things like mark, expose, separate, have no fellowship with, we are not permitted to redefine that to mean have them on your organizing committees, let them pray, send converts to their church, etc. This is a black and white issue with Graham. There are others for whom it is not so black and white, but for Graham, it is clear cut and has been for more than 40 years.
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Rom 16:17-18, Gal 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude, 2 Thess 3 are just a few of the many passages that address this very issue of cooperation with false teachers and apostates, compromise of the gospel, and disobedient brothers. '
BG has not cooperated with those folks. He has cooperated with folks you think fall under those categories. I don't think they do.
 

Joseph_Botwinick

<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Rom 16:17-18, Gal 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude, 2 Thess 3 are just a few of the many passages that address this very issue of cooperation with false teachers and apostates, compromise of the gospel, and disobedient brothers. '

The fact that you differ from the separatists does not make them wrong. They are correct. When the Bible says things like mark, expose, separate, have no fellowship with, we are not permitted to redefine that to mean have them on your organizing committees, let them pray, send converts to their church, etc. This is a black and white issue with Graham. There are others for whom it is not so black and white, but for Graham, it is clear cut and has been for more than 40 years.
PL,

You are wasting your breath. There is no black and white or right and wrong with Post-modern thinkers.

Joseph Botwinick
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You are wasting your breath. There is no black and white or right and wrong with Post-modern thinkers.
Just an fyi that this postmodern thinker does believe in a black and white and a right and wrong. But that they are often found in surprising places and sometimes may not be as easy to find as we originally thought. I hope we can find these things together as a community of believers relying on God's divine scriptures.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
BG has not cooperated with those folks. He has cooperated with folks you think fall under those categories. I don't think they do.
When BG cooperated with the WCC and NCC, and men like Bishop Pike, he associated with those who deny hte Christ he claims to preach. Pike denied the virgin birth and the Trinity (as have many on Graham's organzing committees). In disobedience to Rom 16:17-18, Graham failed to separate from someone who caused division by teaching contrary to the truth we received. When Graham cooperated with the Roman Catholic Church, he associated and encouraged those who preach another gospel. Paul said that even if an angel from heaven preaches another gospel, they are to be anathema. For Graham to send converts back to teh apostate RCC was direct disobedience to the command of God in Gal 1. IN fact, it is possible that one of the reasons why the great differences between biblical Christianity and Romanism have been ignored or overlooked is because of GRaham's compromise. When he said at Belmont Abbey that the gospel he preached and the gospel of the RCC was the same was pure compromise, unless he wasn't preaching the gospel of Christ revealed in Scripture. The RCC hasn't taught that gospel for more than 1500 years. They certainly didn't preach the same gospel in 1967 when Graham said that.

Graham stood in Moscow under the Soviet regime and said there was no evidence of religious persecution. That was completely false. There was great religious persecution.

The fact that you "don't think they do" ... that is, fit in this category, is irrelevant. God did not establish your thoughts as the test of truth. He gave us his inspired word. He is the one who tells us what is right and wrong. Graham wasn't appointed to change those categories.

Here is a short list of more problems with Graham. This list coule be enlarged many many times if we were to list all the examples of this kind of stuff:
http://www.freepres.org/pamphlet_details.asp?graham_facts
 

Kiffen

Member
I do not excuse Graham's statements because he is old or sick or famous. I believe he is right and agree with his statements.
Then you believe you cannot make any judgments from the Word of God on who is going to Heaven or Hell? :confused: Is that what you are saying?
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Kiffen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I do not excuse Graham's statements because he is old or sick or famous. I believe he is right and agree with his statements.
Then you believe you cannot make any judgments from the Word of God on who is going to Heaven or Hell? :confused: Is that what you are saying? </font>[/QUOTE]I explained this in the other post. I believe he is right that he is not the Judge. We are able to make judgements of who is going to heaven or hell but we could be wrong because we are not the Judge.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
Silly me.
I thought what made a person a Christian or not was whether or not they had asked Christ to be Lord of their life, and asked His forgiveness for their sin.

I didn't realize that it was dependent upon joining the "perfect church on earth," and "only doing the right ordinaces," and "never participating in an unnecessary ritual."

To think, all these years I was wrong. It wasn't really about Grace and Christ after all.

I'm kind of set in my ways though. I'll continue believing that salvation is about a person's personal relationship with Christ, and you can go on claiming that a person who attends a church that isn't yours is going to hell.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
While you ar;e doing that, you should stop misrepresenting what other people say. YOu konw good and well that I never said a person's salvation is dependent on which church they go to. You have distorted the truth in pious sounding language.

It is important what church someone goes to because God said it was. When a church doesn't preach the truth, you shouldn't go there. You should not recommend people go there. And if someone stays knowingly in a false church or under false teaching, it does call into question their salvation, if you believe Scripture. The Bible says that God changes us.
 

Paul33

New Member
As Baptists, we are so sure that we know exactly how people go to heaven.

The underlying bottom line is that no one goes to heaven except through Jesus Christ! I think we all agree with that. There is no other way!

But our "formula" of how to go to heaven is just as man-made as those we accuse of having a formula. We accuse Lutherans and Catholics of infant baptismal regeneration. We accuse the Christian Church of baptismal regeneration. We accuse MacArther of Lordship salvation. We accuse some Baptists of easy believism, etc.

But the truth is, a large percentage of "believers" in our churches are not saved. They raised their hand, walked the aisle, said a prayer, were pronounced saved, and got up unregenerated! You know it, and I know it.

So how does God save a person? Not by ethnicity, not by personal choice, not by another person's choice for us, but born of God. And the proof is that those born of God receive him. We can preach the gospel and ask people to receive Christ. Those born of God will confess that Jesus is Lord, believe that God raised him from the dead, and call on his name.

Now can God do this for an infant baptized in a Lutheran church? Before you say no, can God save your infant son when he dies at age two?
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
When Graham cooperated with the Roman Catholic Church, he associated and encouraged those who preach another gospel.
In our Cooperating with Catholics thread a while back, I addressed the many accusations the the RCC preach another gospel. I was hoping you would have been more involved in that thread since it was originally your question I was addressing. Would you like for us to revisit that thread?

Regarding Bishop Pike, I am not familiar with his theological positions. I'll see what I can find out about him.

Regarding the WCC and NCC, the best I could find so far regarding their position on the virgin birth is an found in the WCC website but does not explicitly discuss the virgin birth. I'll keep looking.

World Council of Churches : Who are we?

The World Council of Churches is a fellowship of churches which confess the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour according to the scriptures, and therefore seek to fulfil together their common calling to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
In our Cooperating with Catholics thread a while back, I addressed the many accusations the the RCC preach another gospel. I was hoping you would have been more involved in that thread since it was originally your question I was addressing. Would you like to revisit that thread?
I was involved in that thread for a while. The fact that the RCC does not preach the biblical gospel is well documented. Until recent years, it was never disputed that we differed from them. It shouldn't be disputed now.

Regarding Bishop Pike, I am not familiar with his theological positions. I'll see what I can find out about him.
I don't want to be rude or condescending at all, but it amazes me that you have such a firm position on something when you don't even know the facts about it. It is vitally important that we arm ourselves with knowledge both of God's word and of what people are doing. We can never make good decisions without knowing.

Regarding the WCC and NCC, the best I could find so far regarding their position on the virgin birth is an found in the WCC website but does not explicitly discuss the virgin birth. I'll keep looking.
I don't think yOu won't find a requirement for belief in the virgin birth because they don't require it. AGain, this is well documented from history.
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Regarding Bishop Pike, I am not familiar with his theological positions. I'll see what I can find out about him.
I don't want to be rude or condescending at all, but it amazes me that you have such a firm position on something when you don't even know the facts about it. It is vitally important that we arm ourselves with knowledge both of God's word and of what people are doing. We can never make good decisions without knowing.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm always open to learning and knowing more. Thanks for educating me on BG's association with Bishop Pike. It would be interesting to hear BG's explanation for that association.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
Larry: "While you ar;e doing that, you should stop misrepresenting what other people say."

Why don't you stop misrepresenting Graham?
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
Regarding Bishop Pike, I am not familiar with his theological positions. I'll see what I can find out about him.


This is what I've been able to gather about Pike so far.

1913 - born, raised Roman Catholic
1943-45 - served in the US navy
1946 - Pike's episcopal priesthood ordination
1951 - B.D. from Union Theological Seminary
1952 - appointed Dean of Cathedral of St. John Divine in NYC
1953 - wrote "Beyond Anxiety"
1955 - wrote "The Church, Politics and Society"
1957 - wrote "The Next Day"
1958 May - Pike's bishop of SF ordination
1958 May - Pike prays at BG SF crusade
1960 Dec - Graham speaks at Pike's church
1963 - wrote "A Time for Christian Candor"
1966 - censured by the House of Bishops
1966 - son's suicide
1967 - wrote "The Other Side"
1967 - divorced Esther Pike
1968 - remarried Diane Kennedy
1969 - died

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0839020.html
http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/crypt/cry_20011114.shtml
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/anglican-liberalism.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/books/features/bookwk/040830.html

The Christianity Today article does a good job of explaining why Pike was invited to pray at the SF crusade.

I believe most of Pike's more controversial views about the Trinity and the virgin birth were made in his book "A Time for Christian Candor", although these views were suggested before the writing of this book.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
I can't stop doing something I never started. I haven't misrepresented him. I have said what he said. I have given evidence in support of it where you can go and check for yourself. I don't need to misrepresent it. He was very clear in what he said, or perhaps not very clear which is the problem. He wasn't clear that personal faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven. He wasn't clear that apostates have no place in the ministry of believers. Those are serious issues.
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
If all the believers had abandoned the British Baptist Union and the Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec, I shudder to think where they would be to-day. To-day, the majority are sound evangelical twice-born people.

I think there is a place for one to be a beacon of truth in the halls of darkness. It is for those individuals to give account for what they believe and how they live for Christ.

I know a goodly number of sound, fundamental Christians within the Anglican Church, and I thank God for their devoted witness. If there is no darkness, what is the point in being a candle shining forth the good news that Jesus saves?

Cheers,

Jim
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
We should absolutely be a beacon in teh halls of darkness Jim. But we should not join hands with those of darkness to be that light, especially when those of the darkness pretend to be of the light. Jesus hung out with the tax collectors and sinners. He never asked the Pharisees to support him. Let's follow his example, not Graham's.
 
T

TexasSky

Guest
*** Let the words of the man speak for themselves regarding whether he gives the message of Christ or not. ****

Words from Graham and his teachings:

The bible is the inspired word of God. All scripture will interpret scripture. If we could find ONE scripture anywhere that would cast doubt on any doctrine then that doctrine would have to be declared IMPURE.

2 Pet 1:20
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation

God is sovereign. He alone sets up the Kings and Rulers of the world. God is all knowing. He is everywhere. He is all wisdom. God is omnipresent (everywhere) and omnipotent (All powerful).

Unfortunately, many people today have distorted the meaning of salvation, saying that it means only political, social and economic liberation in this life. Certainly, Christians should be concerned about injustice and do what they can to promote a more just world. But lasting and complete liberation from social injustice will come only when Jesus Christ returns to establish His Kingdom. Biblical salvation is far deeper, because it gets to the root of our problem—the problem of sin. Only Christ can change the human heart and replace greed and hate with compassion and love.

First, all are sinners and stand under the judgment of God. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23, NIV). We might believe that we are good enough to win God's favor or that we can perform certain religious acts to counterbalance our bad deeds. But the Bible states that we are all condemned, for "there is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10, NIV).

Second, we need to understand what Christ has done to make our salvation possible. God loves us, and Christ came to make forgiveness and salvation possible. What did He do? He died on the cross as the complete sacrifice for our sins. He took upon Himself the judgment that we deserve.

Third, we need to respond to God's work. God in His grace offers us the gift of eternal life. But like any gift, it becomes ours only when we take it.

We must repent of our sins. Repentance carries with it the idea of confession, sorrow, turning and changing. We cannot ask forgiveness over and over again for our sins and then return to those sins, expecting God to forgive us. We must turn from our practice of sin as best we know how, and turn by faith to Christ as our Lord and Savior. "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9, NIV). Christ invites us to come to Him, and God has promised, "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12, NIV).

Fourth, we must understand the cost of coming to Christ and following Christ. Jesus constantly called upon those who would follow Him to count the cost. A person must determine to leave his sins behind and turn from them. Some people may be unwilling to do so. And there may be other costs as well when we decide to follow Christ. In some cultures, a person who turns to Christ may be disowned by family, alienated from social life, imprisoned or even killed.

The ultimate cost of true discipleship is the cost of renouncing self: self-will, self-plans, self-motivations. Christ is to be Lord of our lives. Jesus declared, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23, NIV). Jesus does not call us to a life of selfish comfort and ease—He calls us to a battle! He calls us to give up our own plans and to follow Him without reserve—even to death.

Yes, it costs to follow Christ. But it also costs not to follow Christ. It cost the Apostle Paul the prestige of a high-level position in the Jewish nation. But he declared, "whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things" (Philippians 3:7-8, NIV). Christ calls men and women not only to trust Him as Savior, but also to follow Him as Lord.

"We might believe that we are good enough to win God's favor or that we can perform certain religious acts to counterbalance our bad deeds. But the Bible states that we are all condemned, for 'there is no one righteous, not even one.'"

Fifth, salvation is intimately linked to the cross. The man who hung there between two thieves was without sin. His virgin birth, by the miraculous intervention of the Holy Spirit, meant that He did not inherit a sinful human nature. Neither did He commit any sin during His lifetime. Mary gave birth to the only perfect child. He became the only perfect man. As such, He was uniquely qualified to put into action God's plan of salvation for mankind.

Why was Calvary's cross so special, so different from hundreds of other crosses used for Roman executions? It was because on that cross Jesus suffered the punishment for sin that we all deserve. He was our Substitute. He suffered the judgment and condemnation of death that our sinful nature and deeds deserve. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21, NIV).

Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, "I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2, NIV). Paul knew there was a built-in power in the cross and the resurrection.

I remember a meeting early in my ministry when I walked away from where I was preaching, disheartened and disappointed. A businessman who was with me asked me if I knew what was wrong. I couldn't put my finger on it until he told me. "Billy," he said, "you didn't preach the cross!"

He was right. The message had been theologically sound, and I had preached it as best I knew how. But that vital ingredient was missing. I learned my lesson. From that day to this, I have never preached an evangelistic message without pointing the listeners to the cross.


Finally, faith is essential for salvation. But we must be absolutely clear on what we mean when we speak of "salvation by faith." There are various kinds of belief or faith, and not all are linked to salvation. In the New Testament, faith means more than intellectual belief. It involves trust and commitment. I may say that I believe a bridge will hold my weight. But I really believe it only when I commit myself to it and walk across it. Saving faith involves an act of commitment and trust, in which I commit my life to Jesus Christ and trust Him alone as my Savior and Lord.

In the same way, saving faith is a commitment to Jesus as Savior and Lord. It is a personal and individual decision. It is more than assent to historical or theological truth given to us in God's Word. It is faith in the promises of God that all who trust in Christ will not perish but have eternal life.

Remember, we must admit that we are sinners. We must turn away from our sins and to Christ. We must trust Him as our Savior and follow Him as our Lord. God promises that when we do this, He will save us and make us His children, and we will live with Him forever. Will you turn to Christ now?

*** Let the words of the man speak for themselves regarding whether he gives the message of Christ or not. ****
 
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