Words are cheap. Actions matter. Graham's actions for 50 years have cast doubt on his words. I wish he had been faithful to the commands of Scripture over all that time. Just imagine what an impact he could have had.
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TexasSky
Guest
You're right, Larry. Words are cheap, actions matter. That said, have you traveled to 185 countries spreading the words of Christ? Have you put all your misspoken words, errors, mistakes and "questionable" friendships out for the entire world to scrutinize and criticize?
May I humbly suggest you begin with a few words from our Lord and Savior.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
"Love thy neighbor as thyself."
"Forgive seventy times seven."
"If thy brother has aught against thee, leave thy gift at the alter and go, and be reconciled unto him."
Or did those words of Christ not apply to you?
Perhaps you're above them, Larry.
It is interesting that at first you would condemn him by his words, and when his words show you to be in error you retreat to "actions are louder than words."
Christ ate with publicans, sinners, and Pharisees, Larry.
May I humbly suggest you begin with a few words from our Lord and Savior.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
"Love thy neighbor as thyself."
"Forgive seventy times seven."
"If thy brother has aught against thee, leave thy gift at the alter and go, and be reconciled unto him."
Or did those words of Christ not apply to you?
Perhaps you're above them, Larry.
It is interesting that at first you would condemn him by his words, and when his words show you to be in error you retreat to "actions are louder than words."
Christ ate with publicans, sinners, and Pharisees, Larry.
No. We have the authority of the Word of God that all who refuse Christ as Savior and Lord will not enter Heaven. If we believe the Word of God there is no doubt. If we take that view that we cannot judge THEN we cannot even judge that Christians enter Heaven or not. That why Billy Graham's statement is false.
I am not attacking Dr. Graham. He made a false statement however and no Christian should defend it. Perhaps age and illness had an effect on him but lets not defend statements that are contrary to Scripture.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
No. We have the authority of the Word of God that all who refuse Christ as Savior and Lord will not enter Heaven. If we believe the Word of God there is no doubt. If we take that view that we cannot judge THEN we cannot even judge that Christians enter Heaven or not. That why Billy Graham's statement is false.
I am not attacking Dr. Graham. He made a false statement however and no Christian should defend it. Perhaps age and illness had an effect on him but lets not defend statements that are contrary to Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]You obviously don't believe that those verses say that our condemnation of folks will determine their eternal destiny. Making a judgement isn't the same as being the ultimate Judge. So what is incorrect about Graham saying that he is not the ultimate Judge?
No. We have the authority of the Word of God that all who refuse Christ as Savior and Lord will not enter Heaven. If we believe the Word of God there is no doubt. If we take that view that we cannot judge THEN we cannot even judge that Christians enter Heaven or not. That why Billy Graham's statement is false.
I am not attacking Dr. Graham. He made a false statement however and no Christian should defend it. Perhaps age and illness had an effect on him but lets not defend statements that are contrary to Scripture. [/QUOTE]
Dear Kiffen,
I think that you and I agree in essence. What I am trying to say is that what you are calling a false statement I am calling an unclear statement.
You read it as a Buddhist might go to Heaven without faith in Christ.
I read it as God can reach anybody with the salvation provided by Christ alone. God hasn't given us the list of specific individuals that He will reach.
Karen
No Billy Graham was saying he can't judge where Muslims and Mormons are going. That is incorrect. I did not expect him or any Christian on Larry King to say they are going into a raging Burning Hell!
All he had to say is Jesus says He is the Only Way to Heaven and that only by Faith in Him will one enter Heaven. That is it. If pressed then go into detail why those who reject Christ will go to Hell.Others such as John MacArthur have done exactly that and his son Franklin made it clear the other night on Bill O'Reilly that Muslims don't worship the God of Christians. Both MacArthur and Franklin did not appear as condeming but as standing on the Word of God as the judge. This is where Dr. Graham failed and could give the impression that he doesn't know what the fate of the unsaved is.
Karen thanks for the comments. Every Christian agress that God can reach anybody with the salvation provided by Christ alone and that God hasn't given us the list of specific individuals that He will reach. That is not the issue. King (Who is a soft ball interviewer and would not have followed up with a hard ball question most likely) was asking where do those of other religions go when they die. All Graham had to do was say that Jesus is the only way to Heaven as others such as John MacArthur, Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell, Al Mohler etc.. do.
As I have said before I like and respect Billy Graham but that interview as well as an interview with Robert Schuller a few years ago have raised concerns in my mind regarding his theology. I am not going to bash him but I am not going to defend statements that are inexcusable.
Don't forget the words of Christ ... all of them, including the ones about to whom much is given much shall be required. Graham was given much; much will be required of him. Christ never travelled to 185 countries. Paul never did. Are they disqualified from confronting false teaching? Obviously not. Think through your arguments before you make them. Make sure they work. The test of obedience and doctrine has nothing to do with how many countries you have travelled in. The requirements for confronting false teachers have nothing to do with how many you have preached to. REad the whole word ... not just certain parts.
All of those words apply and I have done them all. The verse about judging is about hypocritical standards. Read the whole passage. It continues, "for with whatever judgment you judge, you too shall be judged." Or colloquially, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Don't use a standard for someone else that you won't use for yourself. I welcome anyone to judge me by the standard I put forth. I hope that if I ever turn away like Graham did that people will love me enough to confront me about it, and if I don't repent, I hope they will warn far and wide that I am a false teacher. I pray it never comes to that.
I love my neighbor. That is why I am doing what I am doing. I love you enough to confront you on an issue where you are misguided. I implore you to turn to the word of God for your standard, rather that "185 countries and 210 million people." The standard of obedience and truth is found in God's word alone, and when men violate that, even great men, they should be confronted, rebuked, exposed, and separated from.
I have no lack of forgiveness. This is not about forgiveness. It has nothing to do with it. Graham has never repented of his actions and words. As I said, he has never clarified. He has never turned from his associations with apostates. Repentance has fruits.
His words haven't shown me to be in error. I haven't backtracked a bit. Go back and look. I have said that his right words have not clarified his wrong words, and his actions matter as well as his words. You again have ignored what I actually wrote. That is unethical.
I don't recall any place that Christ ever ate with Pharisees. They were the religious leaders. Christ rebuked them, as many have done to Graham and as Graham should have done to those with whom he joined hand. Christ did eat with tax collectors and sinners, as I have done and love to do. The religious leaders are handled differently than the tax collectors and sinners, as Scripture shows us.
You have a few pet verses you trot out, but they don't deal with the whole issue. In the end, history has shown that Graham was wrong, was largely unsuccessful (probably did less with more than anyone evangelist in history). His compromise didn't help. It is sad. But I do appreciate his testimony of integrity. You need to separate the personality and graciousness of Graham from his disobedience so you can see it clearly.
Your confusion perhaps stems from not reading what I said. (Haven't we been here before? Why is thios such a problem?) I didn't say Graham has had no impact. He has (much of it negative by the way). But it is nothing compared to the impact he could have had doing it God's way.Literaly millions upon millions have heard the gospel preached. countless have turned their lives to Christ the Lord. Billy has had no impact []
Not at all. I am saying both count. TexasSky has pointed out some select words. I am pointing out that his select words don't overrule what he has said and done, and continues to say and do. I little blurb on website does not suffice for 50 years of compromise and disobedience in both words and actions. And I can't imagine it from a man of Graham's integrity. Why would he do that for fifty years? It makes no sense.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Larry,
He had a bigger impact than you and I together could ever dream. I don't see how it could have been any bigger. He literaly preached all over the world.
He could have came of as a fundalmitlist and have had the impact of Jerr fallwell. He is a laughing stock in non- Christian circles. Billy just simply preaches the gospel and stays away from politics. I see nothing wrong with that.
BG didn't condem folks on television so people are going nuts. You have to understand when we drive people we lose all hope of sharing the gospel with others.
He had a bigger impact than you and I together could ever dream. I don't see how it could have been any bigger. He literaly preached all over the world.
He could have came of as a fundalmitlist and have had the impact of Jerr fallwell. He is a laughing stock in non- Christian circles. Billy just simply preaches the gospel and stays away from politics. I see nothing wrong with that.
BG didn't condem folks on television so people are going nuts. You have to understand when we drive people we lose all hope of sharing the gospel with others.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Larry,
The past is the past.
Today is what counts. For each and every Christian, today is what counts.
And the "blurb" I posted is what Graham teaches today.
You just made an error, biblically, in this thread. Golden showed you your error in a very Christ like manner. He did not attack you, he showed the truth.
Why can't you do that with the past teachings of Graham you felt were wrong?
Why can't you accept the current teachings and leave the man be?
In a Christian's life, it does not matter what goes before. It only matters from this day forward. So, yes, the "blurb" on his website, does indeed "undo" the past. Christ undoes ALL of our pasts. Christ forgives us all for every error we made in the past, who are we to refuse forgiveness to one Christ has already forgiven? Are we better than, holier than the Almighty?
The past is the past.
Today is what counts. For each and every Christian, today is what counts.
And the "blurb" I posted is what Graham teaches today.
You just made an error, biblically, in this thread. Golden showed you your error in a very Christ like manner. He did not attack you, he showed the truth.
Why can't you do that with the past teachings of Graham you felt were wrong?
Why can't you accept the current teachings and leave the man be?
In a Christian's life, it does not matter what goes before. It only matters from this day forward. So, yes, the "blurb" on his website, does indeed "undo" the past. Christ undoes ALL of our pasts. Christ forgives us all for every error we made in the past, who are we to refuse forgiveness to one Christ has already forgiven? Are we better than, holier than the Almighty?
In the 40's and 50's, I fellowshipped with the Likes of Ian Paisley, Carl McIntyre and T.T. Shields. None were more vociferous in their opposition to the World COuncil of Churches, the RCC and Billy Graham. We also fought against liberalism within the churches overall. So, I am quite familiar with both sides of the equation.
I still ask the question: Where would the British Baptist Union, the Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec be to-day if all the evangelicals just up and left?
Billy Graham did what he had to do to preach the gospel, and he never wavered in making clear the truth of the gospel. Whilst he had to direct "converts" back to their home churches, he set up a counselling program and follow-up so that these people were not without human direction.
My next question: We say we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and where is that belief now? Do we deny that the Holy Spirit can lead such souls in the right direction?
Over the years, I have seen so many dedicated believers among my memberships who came to know the Lord at a Billy Graham Crusade. I had to change my thinking about Billy Graham
To this day, I don't like his theology and I have some questions about methodology, but I am willing to put aside my personal beliefs for the better good. It does not change my personal convictions, but it does alter my approach to dealing with these things.
Then, I am anti-dispensationalist, but I prolly have more dispensational books in my library than most preachers who follow that system. Why? Simply because the men, such as G. Campbell Morgan, had so much to offer in other areas.
Why can't we take the same approach to Billy Graham, especially in his twilight years. One church where I preach cancels their drummer when I come because they know of my distaste for drums. How magnanimous is that! In return, I overlook some things in that church, and just preach the word and enjoy the fellowship with those dear people.
I feel the same about Billy Graham.
Cheers,
Jim
I still ask the question: Where would the British Baptist Union, the Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec be to-day if all the evangelicals just up and left?
Billy Graham did what he had to do to preach the gospel, and he never wavered in making clear the truth of the gospel. Whilst he had to direct "converts" back to their home churches, he set up a counselling program and follow-up so that these people were not without human direction.
My next question: We say we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and where is that belief now? Do we deny that the Holy Spirit can lead such souls in the right direction?
Over the years, I have seen so many dedicated believers among my memberships who came to know the Lord at a Billy Graham Crusade. I had to change my thinking about Billy Graham
To this day, I don't like his theology and I have some questions about methodology, but I am willing to put aside my personal beliefs for the better good. It does not change my personal convictions, but it does alter my approach to dealing with these things.
Then, I am anti-dispensationalist, but I prolly have more dispensational books in my library than most preachers who follow that system. Why? Simply because the men, such as G. Campbell Morgan, had so much to offer in other areas.
Why can't we take the same approach to Billy Graham, especially in his twilight years. One church where I preach cancels their drummer when I come because they know of my distaste for drums. How magnanimous is that! In return, I overlook some things in that church, and just preach the word and enjoy the fellowship with those dear people.
I feel the same about Billy Graham.
Cheers,
Jim
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
It is awesome to see Romans 14 and Ephesians 4 at work in Christians.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Again, Jim1999~
Well said, Sir!