Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[Scott J]

I believe in fairness. I believe in equal opportunity (but not equal outcome). However, affirmative action and other quota schemes are not fair, nor are they equal.

And to re-ask my earlier question, does my wife need to pay herself reparations?

That's what bothers me Hope.

Imagine that somehow the government had the power to strip everyone of all their wealth (not all that difficult to imagine is it?) then redistributed it giving nothing to people with your skin color and finally declared "Everyone has equality of opportunity, go do your best". Now some people out of your group would beat the odds but most would be handicapped beyond hope.

I don't know exactly how to fix it... but I think Bush had part of the right idea when he set as a goal to increase black home ownership. That is a good basic foundation for capital.

 

[Filmproducer]

Excellent post ScottJ!

 

[shannonL]

The first church I pastored was in down east NC. It was a SBC church. Two miles down the road on the opposite side was a church by the exact same name except it was a "black church".
I was 29 at the time. This was 1998. After being in a few deacons meetings I come to realize that most of our deacons were bigots. The church didn't want the black folk in the near by trailer park to walk across the back of their property to go to the little country store.
The N word was sometimes used in my presence along with the word "coon". I found out that the former pastor who was a local man , had pastored the church for 10 years .He was about 65. Well, he was a bigot too.
It came to the point to where I believed these men were dropping these comments in my presence to see if I was a bigot too. I found out exactly what I believed by pastoring that church.
It came to the point that if I was going to remain silent then my silence would be telling them I agreed with their views.
ONe day afte preaching on Sunday morning I addressed the whole congregation about this matter.I shared what I thought to be appropriate Scriptures that would condemn this kind of racist behavior. I also told them as lovingly as I could that when their pastor was around I really didn't want to hear the N word or any variation of that kind of talk. I also told those folk that that prejudiceness was sin and it was no different than if you had a problem with lying. You just need to repent and move on.
Well, that was the beginning of the end of my pastorate at that church. I could tell you a whole lot more but don't have the time. Except to say purely by an providential act of the Lord we just happened to be inviting kids to our VBS the next week after my taking a stand against racism.
My wife and I didn't plan it or anything we simply invited all kinds of folk to the VBS. Low and behold a black woman came with her 3 year old boy. When the little children went to refreshments none of the all white workers nor any of the white kids would sit with that black woman and her boy. It was disgusting. My wife was the only lady that sat with them. You would have thought that a dog had come into their fellowship hall and did his business on one of the seats.
Eventually that was one of the key issues that led to our resignation from that church. If you want to call it a church.
So I myself have stood in the gap concerning racism against black americans. You really can't say you understand it until you have been through it. It is a wicked thing.
All that being said MLK day is a sham. Also, the worst thing that has ever happened to black folk is all the gov. handouts.It has robbed them of their dignity. LBJ and his "Great Society" didn't help them either.
I simply think that MLK day is disporportionate with his contribution to society. That is it there is no racism involved in my view at all.
My dad was the first farmer in Western NC to have migrate workers on our tobacco farms. I was eight when the first fellow showed up on our door to work. He was name was Jose. He was 16. He slept in the same room with me for a year. I have grown up with all kinds of folk my whole life.
I'm a southern boy all the way .Proud of it. I married a northern girl I live in OH. I have seen just as much racism up north by northerners as I ever have down south. I get sick and tired of people trying to make out like it is a southern thing. The southeastern US is one of the most diverse places in the country.
This has been a rambling post I know. But I don't like being counted as a racists jus because I don't support the holiday of some African American demogogue whose character was unsavory to say the least. Put it this way when a man dies who had character people don't sit around debating whether or not he was a character.

 

[Filmproducer]

ShannonL,

I am sorry about the church experience that you had. It is horrendous, and unfortunately not all that uncommon. As far as racism in America, it still exists, and it is definitely not limited to the American south. Obviously I disagree with your opinion of MLK Day, and also the man himself. No one has yet to substantiate their claims with any reliable evidence. He was not a perfect man, but who is. I respect your opinion, I just do not hold it. Regardless of the man, MLK Day, is more about the civil rights movement than the man.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

Originally posted by Filmproducer:
ShannonL,

I am sorry about the church experience that you had. It is horrendous, and unfortunately not all that uncommon. As far as racism in America, it still exists, and it is definitely not limited to the American south. Obviously I disagree with your opinion of MLK Day, and also the man himself. No one has yet to substantiate their claims with any reliable evidence. He was not a perfect man, but who is. I respect your opinion, I just do not hold it. Regardless of the man, MLK Day, is more about the civil rights movement than the man.

Don't you think the results would be the same of an all black church and some whites moved into the neighborhood and came to their all black church? Or do you think the blacks would have just reached out to the whites with open arms?

I think it is equally wrong both ways, but you just don't hear this scenario at all mentioned above.

Anyway, unfortunately I am afraid we will never settle the race issue until Jesus comes. I have been in the military for 19 years and seen the world and believe it or not we all get along pretty good for the most part and you see some very interesting kids made as a black marries a Korean or a white marries a woman of Panama.

Also, being now stationed in the largest speaking Spanish American city, my wife has lost out on 3 or 4 good jobs for one reason and that is she does not speak Spanish. Is that fair in America? Sorry for rambling too. It is a topic you can talk and debate on forever with many different opinions.

God Bless.

 

[TaterTot]

I live in a racially tense area, and it really does go both ways. We occasioanlly have a black person come to our church, and we are glad for it. We all need Christ.
Many people do not feel this way. There are some Christian black people around here that would welcome a white into their church, but most do not. I think part of that is the cultural differences in worship styles and preferences that exist.
But I am here to tell you that racism is not just white to black. It goes both ways. I lived in New orleans for 3 years, and the clerks at the grocery store would not even speak to me enough to tell me my total. They would point at it. Then the person behind me got a totally different experience. And there are many other experiences I could share, but wont. I just always smiled anyway. I have no problem with black people. We dont choose who we are.


My daughter has a black baby doll that she loves dearly (named "Fred"). You should see the ugly looks she gets from people in Walmart

 

[shannonL]

Racism does go both ways. Also, I don't think to many white folk would feel comfortable in a black church. I think that "tension" will always be there simply because people are different. I'm all for diversity etc....However since man is cursed with sin I believe this issue is just one of the outcomes of that curse.
I still think the liberal politics of some democrats fuels the fire istead of helping it.
things like class warfare pitting the rich against the poor doesn't help matters.
New Orleans is a prime example of how the lib. dems. have exploited the poor blacks in that city. They have had a chokehold on the political system in that city for decades. What have they done for the poor there? Nothing, except keep them right where they want them which is dependant on gov. You see when your worldview is shaped by 3 generations of being taught that "your getting a raw deal the US owes you" well what you get when trouble comes is what you saw in New Orleans. When the demogogues of your culture are constantly telling you the world is against you, your getting cheated, when the mainstream music of your culture is constantly thumping the same ideas into your young people's heads what you get is anger. You have a chip on your shoulder from day one. Then the liberal, socialists politicians come along and they tap into all that and use it and the people it effects for their own political gain. I'm telling you alot of people in power in this country are not interested in solving the race problem. If they did then the political football would get kicked right out of the stadium and the game would be over.
Every human being alive should have civil rights. No question. In this country though has went way beyond that. All the free bees that have been given to minorities through programs etc... has not helped them it has hurt them. One day it is going to hurt all of us in ways we don't want to think about.
We can't even protect our country properly because some dude with a turban on his head might get offended if we profile him. Even though it was dudes like that that blew up the WTC towers.
That is what you call civil rights or political correctness "gone wild".
BTW, I will agree filmproducer that MLK day is more about celebrating the civil rights movement than it is the man himself. The holiday was still made due to political pressure.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Where I go to church it is about 40% white, 40% black 15% hispantc and 5% of others.
About 5% of the white are from Europe and 15% of the blacks are from the islands and Africa. We seem to get along fine. Our problem is we are about 70% are conservative 25% liberal and 5%moderate on public issures and about 75% conservative 15% liberal and 20% moderate on doctrine. At times that is a problem but it sure isn't race.

 

[David J]

The problem is that all the liberal media, NAACP, diversity (another term for affirmative action which violates the Civil Rights Act), black this and that, etc... see is RACE! Those who claim to see no color talk about it all the time.

MLK fails the bibles test as a Rev. That is not debatable.

MLK was not perfect and in many ways I feel he hurt blacks for more than he helped them.

Just for research purposes I challenge each and every one of you to research black culture by comparing out of web lock births, crime, and family structure before Civil Rights vs. today. What you will find will shock you.

Yes, I agree with equal rights but many who parrot MLK want superior rights or special exceptions. This is wrong.

Black culture today is destructive, disrespectful, and immoral. Where are the boycotts of Hip Hop, etc…?

Bill Cosby speaks truth and look what happened to him.

When you dress like a thug, act like a criminal, etc… then don’t be surprised if you are looked at like a thug and criminal. What ever happened to being a decent citizen that dressed with respect, respected fellow citizens etc… Now understand that I’m only talking about the Hip Hop culture.

I know many fine black people who work hard etc… It’s a shame that they have the stain of the current black leadership upon them. Everytime a black accomplishes something in the work force so may people ask,”was it a diversity move?” thereby hurting the man/woman hard work!

So in a nut shell modern Civil Rights movements are nothing but wanting Superior Rights.

And by the way why is it racist not to like MLK? Why is it racist to speak truth about him? Why?

Why does MLK get the pardon for plagiarism? Why can't we hold him to the same standards as all US citizens?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by C4K:
Would appreciate some documentation of some of the charges so I could state an informed opinion.

Ralph Abernathy was MLK’s closest associate for many years. He gives a candid picture of MLK’s womanizing in The Walls Came Tumbling Down. He relates how MLK apparently had sexual relations with three different women the night prior to his assassination. Furthermore, he had a fistfight with one of the women at the Memphis motel approximately thirty minutes before he was assassinated. Ralph was there and gives firsthand accounts. Ralph was still very much pro-MLK and rationalizes away the adultery and smacking a woman. I beg to differ—such sins and character faults preclude MLK from ever being a great man in my book.

You may find a copy of the book through an ABE search. I have a copy but copies are not easy to find since certain elements, notably the King family, have sought to suppress it. Most libraries have pulled it from their shelves, so you may find an ex-library copy. With the King mythmaking, this book will probably never be reprinted. It’s too devastating, although it was written from a friendly and candid perspective, to the MLK myth. It’s rather like those FBI files that are being kept under wraps for an extended period. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t eventually vaporize.

 

[Pipedude]

Originally posted by paidagogos:It’s rather like those FBI files that are being kept under wraps for an extended period. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t eventually vaporize.

I've guessed that they already have disappeared. But it doesn't matter. Plenty of the content has been published by David Garrow and others, and the verdict is always the same: "The actual facts are irrelevant! The myth is all that matters! He was the messenger of God and is worthy to receive blessing and honor and glory and power!" Publishing those fourteen file cabinets of material documenting his sordid life (why were they sealed?) wouldn't help a bit.

A Muslim man from Turkey said to me a few years ago, "Who is this man? They act like he is a god or something." I guess he hadn't gotten the message that the holiday isn't about King.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Seeker Of Truth:
Let's stick with the topic and drop the personal attacks.

Your opening post was nothing BUT a personal attack on someone!
Good GRIEF!

 

[le bel]

Originally posted by David J:
The problem is that all the liberal media, NAACP, diversity (another term for affirmative action which violates the Civil Rights Act), black this and that, etc... see is RACE! Those who claim to see no color talk about it all the time.

MLK fails the bibles test as a Rev. That is not debatable.

MLK was not perfect and in many ways I feel he hurt blacks for more than he helped them.

Just for research purposes I challenge each and every one of you to research black culture by comparing out of web lock births, crime, and family structure before Civil Rights vs. today. What you will find will shock you.

Yes, I agree with equal rights but many who parrot MLK want superior rights or special exceptions. This is wrong.

Black culture today is destructive, disrespectful, and immoral. Where are the boycotts of Hip Hop, etc…?

Bill Cosby speaks truth and look what happened to him.

When you dress like a thug, act like a criminal, etc… then don’t be surprised if you are looked at like a thug and criminal. What ever happened to being a decent citizen that dressed with respect, respected fellow citizens etc… Now understand that I’m only talking about the Hip Hop culture.

I know many fine black people who work hard etc… It’s a shame that they have the stain of the current black leadership upon them. Everytime a black accomplishes something in the work force so may people ask,”was it a diversity move?” thereby hurting the man/woman hard work!

So in a nut shell modern Civil Rights movements are nothing but wanting Superior Rights.

And by the way why is it racist not to like MLK? Why is it racist to speak truth about him? Why?

Why does MLK get the pardon for plagiarism? Why can't we hold him to the same standards as all US citizens?

Well didn't you know? You'd be taking away their individuality and expressiveness.

I, too, see it as detriment. Many blacks feel as if they are due special treatment, extra help, etc. I share the same sentiments, this coming from someone of both races but was raised primarily in the black culture.

Many unknowing "Christians" mainly black do see MLK as a prominent Christian leader. Sad to say, they don't know the truth. It is a very in depth "religious" culture, as many harp on religious teachings, quotes, a high and mighty, but it sure isn't King Jesus. I have many cousins who are "Christians" and take great pride in the MLK mentality who live very unChrist-like, and know little of His teachings. I know a good number who fall under the Christian title for various reasons, but don't hold Christian beliefs.

Much of this can be applied to just about any culture, but this is what *I* have been raised around. I mean I have a grandmother who adores MLK and supposedly Jesus, yet she also adores her 40 oz Budweiser and drunkenness. Much of the culture is about religion and not about Christianity, but of course Christianity is appealing to many.

And no, I am not racist.

Black culture today is destructive, disrespectful, and immoral. Where are the boycotts of Hip Hop, etc…?

Indeed it is. I was immersed into this lifestyle in my early years. I despise it now, and have been labeled "white washed" as my taste in culture has changed. Hmm, I find that amusing in a way. I embrace my rich heritage, but I don't have to accept all of its destructiveness, which plays a prominent role in today's youth.

 

[DeeJay]

It is widely known that King was a womanizing adulterer. He had a weakness for women and indulged in extramarital affairs. The Bible calls those "extramarital affairs" ADULTERY! "Reverend?" I think not.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:27-28


.........“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
John 8:7


Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite!

 

[Alcott]

.........“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
John 8:7

So since King was not without sin, then he had no business 'throwing stones' at other sins-- is that what you're saying?

 

[DeeJay]

And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

 

[Scott J]

Who's to say that he hasn't considered the plank in his eye? Does God's standard or obvious violations of it become moot because no one is without sin?

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Who's to say that he hasn't considered the plank in his eye? Does God's standard or obvious violations of it become moot because no one is without sin?

Not at all, but why is it someone else's business to stomp a dead man's testimony, discredit any good he may have done, and further, publically shame and humiliate his family years after his murder?

One doesn't need to do this in order to uphold God's standards or speak against violations of it.

Would you be willing to share your full name, your location, and a list of anytime you have sinned, including any affairs or thoughts of them, other sexual indiscretions, every time you were credited fully with something someone else deserved part of the credit for, and then have me write all about it, slam you, and make it easily available to your wife, family, children, church, and everyone else to see, and even further, post it on the worldwide internet so that the whole world can know about you?

Or...do you believe that people like you and me have lower obligations as Christians than other people, and that we should only do this with people who have actually used their lives to influence more people than we ourselves have?

If you truly believe that doing this to King is ok, I urge you to consider sharing your personal information to be used in the same manner as King's is being used.

 

[Filmproducer]

That is an excellent point ScottJ, but the fact is the man is dead. What does his supposed sexual life have to do with the Civil Rights Movement? One, regardless of how much anomosity there is toward the day, by anyone, it will not be changed as a holiday. Let's face it, anyone who tries would be facing political suicide, rightly or wrongly so. Secondly, the day is more about Civil Rights than anything else, even the displays on MLK Day focus on his, and others, civil rights activities, more than anything else. Third, he is remembered for the civil rights movement, not his faith. Ask anyone around, and the majority will not be able to name one of his sermons, or even what denomination he was from. He is most remembered for his, "I have a Dream" speech, and his non-violent approach to civil rights. Yes, this goes for black people to. He is looked up to, but for those reasons, his only association to "Christianity", to most, is the Rev. in his name.

 

[Filmproducer]

EXCELLENT POINT GINA!!!