Dr. Stanley and Eternal Security

[Brother Bob]

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I don't think so, I think it was the First resurrection and Christ being the firstfruits of them that slept.

If a number of the dead arose and went into Jerusalem, don't you think there would of been something wrote about it over and over. Think about it, the dead arose. No, I believe they went into Heaven goeth wherever the Lamb goeth.

Amid would fit into Matt telling the story of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[J. Jump]

Scripture?

Again how many would you like? That's viritually the vast majority of the message in the NT.

I believe it says satan was loosed for a little season. If satan is not loose today, then I am wrong.

Satan is free today and he is called the prince of the power of the air and the god of this world (age). He has yet to be bound up, so he has yet to be "loosed for a little season." That will happen after the 1,000-year kingdom.

So if you are saying the 1,000-year kingdom came to an end at the cross would you call 2,000 years a "little season?"

Death still reigns doesn't it?

So during Christ's 1,000-year reign death didn't reign?

The Lord's Kingdom is within his children, part of it is on earth and part has already gone on, and the Lord is the King of it.

Satan can't be the ruler of the earth and Christ.

I hope you see all the problems this view is causing .

 

[Brother Bob]

It just says they lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years, then satan was loosed for a little season. It don't say His Kingdom came to an end.

You think Christ is the ruler of the earth now?

I think He is the ruler of His Kingdom, which is not the earth, but is within His children. According to Him.

BTW, how long is a 1000 years, to God?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

As I think I have discussed with you before JJ, I believe the 1000 year reign ended with the cross.

My wife wants to know if the 1000 year reign ended at the cross, why was satan still on the earth during Jesus day? He even met with Jesus himself on the mountain after Jesus' fasting.

It is evident that He was around for some time before that as well.

Just when in history was satan bound for 1000 years?

 

[Brother Bob]

My wife wants to know if the 1000 year reign ended at the cross, why was satan still on the earth during Jesus day? He even met with Jesus himself on the mountain after Jesus' fasting.

It is evident that He was around for some time before that as well.__________________

A 1000 years with the Lord is as yesterday, or 1 day. We can not measure God's time. That was what He was telling us. A thousand years could of been just the time He was bound to the cross.

Anyway, to answer your wife's question after the 1000 years, satan was loosed, which is now for a little season. It will come to an end when the Lord comes back.

Also, I spoke of the fear that came upon men when the great darkness came upon the earth when Jesus died and the earthquakes and the confessions. It is the same as the end of time will be. When this happens in the end of time there will be such fear that all men will confess His name. Well, when He was on the cross, such a time came and even those who periced Him in the side because of fear, confessed His name and Truly this is the Christ.

Blessed and Holy is he that hath a part in the first resurrection, for on him the second death shall have no power.

Do you have a part in Christ? Then you have a part in the First Resurrection.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

All of this confusion is an attempt to get around the simple Biblical fact that we are saved by Grace by faith and saved people are born again. That is their lives are changed so that they no longer are dominated by the sin master but rather by their Lord Jesus Christ. If someone hasn't been changed in that way they are going to Hell. What's so difficult or radical about that? I'd call it the "old time religion." Dispensational views that most of the New Testament doesn't apply to us are literally not Biblical.

Exactly right! I was getting ready to post something very similar, but you beat me to it. :thumbs:

Dispesnsationalism taken to such extremes leads away from the simple gospel of grace in Jesus Christ alone. We are not only saved by God's grace, but we live daily by God's grace.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, you didn't have to post now did you?

As far as Dispesnsation of time, I believe we are in the last dispensation now. When the Lord come back, time shall be no more. Where you get a 1000 years when you have no time. His church will meet Him in the air and He will pour out His wrath upon the devil, unbeliever, those who work abomination, and those who make a lie. Also, whosoever names is not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Well, you didn't have to post now did you?

Thanks for the advice. However, I think I can handle when I do and don't post.

 

[Brother Bob]

You are certainly welcome.............

 

[DQuixote]

Wow. Skypair gets it backwards (strike one), JJump misinterprets (strike two), BaptistBeliever says that dispensationalists believe that MOST of the NT doesn't apply to "us" (strike three). No wonder we have this board. It's a place to come to be confused, and share your confusion.

As someone has pointed out to Skypair already, soul=mind, will, emotions, intellect. Spirit is that spirit imparted to each of us at the point of belief.

As to JJump's misinterpretation of these two scriptures:

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit (lose) his soul?

He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

What those two verses actually are saying to us:

What DOES it profit ANYONE to gain the whole world and be lost for eternity? That's the clear, accurate application of this verse. If you put all your eggs in the basket of your own identity, you lose Christ!

He who has found his OWN life, who basks in the glow of his sinful nature, to the exclusion of Jesus Christ, will LOSE his life for eternity. He who SURRENDERS to Jesus Christ LOSES his sinful identity, replacing it with the Righteousness of God in Christ.

Of course OSAS is true! It can't possibly be anything but true! It is NOT a license to sin! On the contrary, it is an invitation to follow in Christ's footsteps. One who is born again REJOICES that the Way, the Truth, and the Life have been made clear!

As a classic dispensationlist I can tell you that we do not believe that MOST of the NT does not apply to Christians. Clearly there are portions addressed to God's Chosen, the Jews, Israel, the Remnant, in preparation for the Kingdom of the Promise. Clearly there are portions that are addressed to Christian Believers, both Jew and non-Jew. While the WHOLE of the NT is an awesome revelation of the majesty of God I, as a Christian, do not meet in a synagogue, or refrain from eating pork, or worship on Saturday, or look for God's Kingdom on earth prior to the rapture of the church, or expect to live on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ ... among other things. The classic dispensational viewpoint requires one to spiritually interpret scripture, never relying upon the intellectual machinations of the mind, will, emotions, the natural man, the sinful nature, the flesh. There but for the Grace of God go I.

 

[J. Jump]

Dispesnsationalism taken to such extremes leads away from the simple gospel of grace in Jesus Christ alone.

Actually dispensationalism that is applied right will not lead one away from this, but if you are agreeing with BaptistBeliever in that if a person doesn't produce fruit they aren't saved then dispensationalist or not that is in fact as far away from grace through faith apart from works as one can get.

What DOES it profit ANYONE to gain the whole world and be lost for eternity?

And yet that's not what that verse says. Hmmmm.....

That's the clear, accurate application of this verse.

So we have to do away with what the text says in order to reach the clear, accurate application of the verse. Hmmmm.....

Of course OSAS is true! It can't possibly be anything but true! It is NOT a license to sin!

Well we have actually found common ground.

 

[TaterTot]

Well, you didn't have to post now did you?

And I am rude? amazing....

 

[JustChristian]

This idea also makes it easy to understand verses such as Matthew 7:14: “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto THE life, and few there be that find it.” You are encouraged to pursue the difficult, constrained path of discipleship that leads to the blessings of the Kingdom. The narrow gate means of course that you must enter through faith in Jesus the Christ, which only allows entrance for one individual at a time. But, there is a warning contained in the passage: There are only a few who will find it. This is the same warning given in other places about many being called, or invited, but only a few will be called out or chosen or elect. Many will be saved, but few will rule and reign in the coming Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[FONT=&quot]Brothers and sister, you can have THE life; you can receive a victor’s crown; you can enter in at the narrow gate. All you have to do is live your life faithfully; you have to continuously love Him. When do you do that? You do that always, in everything that you do. Your salvation is secure and you cannot lose that under any circumstance. But, you can lose your inheritance; you can lose your crowns; you can lose your life in the age to come. Life your life faithfully and don’t blow it! Don’t lose your life![/FONT]

This passage is referring to entering into Heaven, not the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

This passage is referring to entering into Heaven, not the Millennial Kingdom.

Well, I just gave two pages on why it's the Kingdom of the Heavens, and all you have is "No it's not". Where's the proof?

 

[Hope of Glory]

And I am rude? amazing....

I've never said you were rude...

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't believe they are the same Hope. I believe Hell hold the souls of the wicked (which Jesus is not) and the Lake will hold both soul and body of the wicked.

Well, at least you don't equate the two, as so many in Christendom do.

However, if you're looking at the KJV, one thing that is confusing is that they chose to translate four different words as "hell".

Two of them are nothing more than the grave. Barring the Lord's return, we're all going there. (Not a physical tomb, but Sheol and Hades.)

Another word that is translated as "hell" in the KJV is "Tartarus", which is mentioned only once in the NT, and once or twice in the Apocrypha. (I can't remember and don't feel like looking it up at the moment. I've been working since 6 AM, except for my earlier break here on the board.) Each reference refers to angels being held until judgment. (Which I find interesting in itself.)

The fourth word, which is "Gehenna", could be argued as being a place for unsaved people until the Great White Throne judgment, or it could be a place for wicked saved people, or whatever.

However, in this instance, we're referring to Sheol/Hades:

Acts 2:27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

He was resurrected; his soul was not left in hell. His spirit was with the Father. His body was in the tomb.

 

[Brother Bob]

However, in this instance, we're referring to Sheol/Hades:

Acts 2:27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

He was resurrected; his soul was not left in hell. His spirit was with the Father. His body was in the tomb.

I agree with this, except I believe the hell spoken of here, was the confinement to the cross.

Hope of Glory;
Rich man
haides hah'-dace: unseen, i.e. Hades or the place (state) of departed souls -- grave, hell.
The rich man was in a place of departed souls, a place of punishment in flames and his body was not there, it was in the grave.

On the other hand Jesus was in a type of hell the same as Jonah where there was both soul and body, and Jonah was suffering and confined, but there were no flames there.
Jonah
sh'owl (sheh-ole')
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

Jesus
sh'owl (sheh-ole')
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.
The only place I can read where Jesus was punishing and confined, was when He was on the cross, where He cried "Father why hast thou forsaken me". I believe this to be the Hell where Jesus was.

 

[Brother Bob]

TT;

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Well, you didn't have to post now did you?

And I am rude? amazing....

You attack and then are surprised when someone responds.
You called me arrogant, out of the blue. If I have ever spoken to you, I do not remember but did respond when you called me arrogant for no reason, when I was only responding to the OP. He asked for both opinions, but when I gave mine, you called me arrogant. You should apoligize for calling me a name, when I was not addressing you at all.

The post I made that you are questioning now, was in response to an attack by another. I was not bothering no one at all, as I was not bothering no one this time you posted either. I was talking with others, which did not involve you or PSBC.

I will pass this time.

 

[J. Jump]

I believe this to be the Hell where Jesus was.

With all due respect Brother Bob your views on Scripture get more complicated and confusing the more I read about your beliefs.

So "hell" is not a permant place, but is a place that is mobile and a place where one can find themselves in in the US and Canada and Mexico and Russia and Africa and Australia and Europe?

What you have described is really a state of emotions. You say Jesus was suffering on the cross, which He was, but you are saying His sufferings are hell, but I see no evidence of this in Scripture. Scripture speaks of hell as a literal place not a state of pain and suffering that can be found everywhere.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

TT;

You attack and then are surprised when someone responds.
You called me arrogant, out of the blue. If I have ever spoken to you, I do not remember but did respond when you called me arrogant for no reason, when I was only responding to the OP. He asked for both opinions, but when I gave mine, you called me arrogant. You should apoligize for calling me a name, when I was not addressing you at all.

The post I made that you are questioning now, was in response to an attack by another. I was not bothering no one at all, as I was not bothering no one this time you posted either. I was talking with others, which did not involve you or PSBC.

I will pass this time.

You are constantly on the look out to be attacked. No one attacked you at all, but simply pointed out the problems in your post and your attitude.