Draw all men to myself

[Blammo]

Quite the contrary. Free-willism is based on a few words (whosoever, all, any, etc.), and conjecture ("a righteous God wouldnt...", "a holy God wouldn't..."). Calvinism is based on whole clear passages of scripture, too numerous to quote in one post.

I am very open minded. If you or anyone else were able to prove your doctrine with scripture I would accept it as truth. I will concede that you do prove your doctrine up to a point, but then you take it beyond what the Bible actually says. That is the problem. Time after time I have told you and others I agree with you on much of what you proclaim. But then you go way beyond it without any scripture to back it up. You take a clear Biblical truth and then you run ahead with your logic as if that is the only possible route to take from the truth.

Anyway, I have learned a lot from you and others, and I do appreciate it very much. However, unless you are able to show me scriptural proof for all that you teach, I may accept your views as sound logic, but I will not accept it as truth.

 

[reformedbeliever]

What this verse is NOT saying..."Those who don't come to me were never drawn by the Father" as calvinists read it.

Many calvinist claim there are more than one drawing or calling. They would say that God calls everyone in His general call. Then there is the effective or effectual call. The one goes to all. The efectual call goes to the elect.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I am very open minded. If you or anyone else were able to prove your doctrine with scripture I would accept it as truth. I will concede that you do prove your doctrine up to a point, but then you take it beyond what the Bible actually says. That is the problem. Time after time I have told you and others I agree with you on much of what you proclaim. But then you go way beyond it without any scripture to back it up. You take a clear Biblical truth and then you run ahead with your logic as if that is the only possible route to take from the truth.

Anyway, I have learned a lot from you and others, and I do appreciate it very much. However, unless you are able to show me scriptural proof for all that you teach, I may accept your views as sound logic, but I will not accept it as truth.

Where do we start Blammo? I'll do as much as I can as I have time.

 

[Blammo]

Where do we start Blammo? I'll do as much as I can as I have time.

We who are saved are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Why?

 

[reformedbeliever]

We who are saved are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Why?

Because Jesus commanded it? Because we do not know who the elect are? Because we should desire that every person who ever existed, every individual would experience the same unmerited favor.... grace.... that was extended to undeserving people such as I. I have compassion for the lost. I do not want one single person to be lost. If not for God's grace, I would be lost. I don't deserve God's favor... I wish that everyone was saved. We should preach evangelistic messages. We should do our part to bring the message to whosoever will. We should have a zeal for evangelism out of compassion for lost people whom I would be if not for God's grace. I'm no better than they. We should not however teach any false doctrine or idea. I think many people have been fooled into a false profession of faith. Are they saved? I don't know. Many do not act like it. That is what is wrong with the church today, I feel. There are many unregenerate people in the church today as a social club. There are many unregenerate preachers and teachers. We have to study to show ourselves approved, to not be ashamed, to be a workman..... that means to work hard at bible study. We are to study it all.... even the hard parts such as election and predestination, God's appointing people, the sovereignty of God. That is the problem or lack of therein the church I believe Blammo. Now where do we go?

 

[Jarthur001]

I am very open minded. If you or anyone else were able to prove your doctrine with scripture I would accept it as truth.

Blammo...you would trust me..right? Blammo?? Blammo??

TESTING 1, 2, 3... Is this mic on??

Just truuuuuuuust me. Its true.

 

[Blammo]

Because Jesus commanded it? Because we do not know who the elect are? Because we should desire that every person who ever existed, every individual would experience the same unmerited favor.... grace.... that was extended to undeserving people such as I. I have compassion for the lost. I do not want one single person to be lost. If not for God's grace, I would be lost. I don't deserve God's favor... I wish that everyone was saved. We should preach evangelistic messages. We should do our part to bring the message to whosoever will. We should have a zeal for evangelism out of compassion for lost people whom I would be if not for God's grace. I'm no better than they. We should not however teach any false doctrine or idea. I think many people have been fooled into a false profession of faith. Are they saved? I don't know. Many do not act like it. That is what is wrong with the church today, I feel. There are many unregenerate people in the church today as a social club. There are many unregenerate preachers and teachers. We have to study to show ourselves approved, to not be ashamed, to be a workman..... that means to work hard at bible study. We are to study it all.... even the hard parts such as election and predestination, God's appointing people, the sovereignty of God. That is the problem or lack of therein the church I believe Blammo. Now where do we go?

Let's stay right here.

We do it because we are commanded to, we do it because we desire to, neither of which answer why we are commanded to, or why we desire to. (Which was the intent of my question, 'why are we commanded to?')

Preaching a worldly version of the gospel, designed to assure the proper outward response, is not the fault of the command. And, after reading what you wrote here, I feel compelled to ask: Do you know you are saved? (I'm sure you do) I know I am. And I don't deserve it either.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo...you would trust me..right? Blammo?? Blammo??

TESTING 1, 2, 3... Is this mic on??

Just truuuuuuuust me. Its true.

After a careful review of the above post, having found no scripture in it, I have yet to be convinced of the calvinist doctrine.

Yes, the mic is on, and I will stay tuned.

 

[Tom Butler]

Back in post #5, Blammo quoted 2 Cor 5:17-20

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


Let me pull this out of the passage and ask for some help with it:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them;....

Now, this phrase: "...not imputing their trespasses unto them..."

If God is reconciling the world, interpreted as every person, and is not imputing their trespasses to them--every person--how is this not universalism?

I don't believe we Baptists believe in universalism, so will some of you scholars take a crack at exegeting this passage?

 

[Blammo]

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them;....

Now, this phrase: "...not imputing their trespasses unto them..."

If God is reconciling the world, interpreted as every person, and is not imputing their trespasses to them--every person--how is this not universalism?

I don't believe we Baptists believe in universalism, so will some of you scholars take a crack at exegeting this passage?

Not a scholar by any means, but I'll take a crack at it.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men are not condemned, neither are all men saved. But the free gift came upon all men, just as condemnation had come upon all men.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I don't believe the people in the above verse are saved, but the verse certainly says the Lord bought them.

 

[psalms109:31]

Listen

Not in the Bible. Conjecture. But let's say that did happen. What was the "choice" of those burning in hell? Were any of them saved?

Assuming the answer is "no", then why is that so? Wouldn't you, wouldn't anyone, have the good sense to repent and believe if they were standing in the very flames of hell and had opportunity?

If someone was preaching you that He was the way and the truth and the life in the same place you were, would everyone believe not everyone believed when He was here, do you think all listened to Him there

 

[reformedbeliever]

Let's stay right here.

We do it because we are commanded to, we do it because we desire to, neither of which answer why we are commanded to, or why we desire to. (Which was the intent of my question, 'why are we commanded to?')

Preaching a worldly version of the gospel, designed to assure the proper outward response, is not the fault of the command. And, after reading what you wrote here, I feel compelled to ask: Do you know you are saved? (I'm sure you do) I know I am. And I don't deserve it either.

Yes, without the slightest doubt. I experienced (in a mighty way) the new birth that Jesus told Nicodemus about. Not only did I experience it... it experienced me. I was an absolutely new creation. The old person died and a new one was born again. The new birth was extreemly evident by my wife, my children, my parents, my friends (who went away), my co-workers..... everyone. The change in me was truly supernatural.

 

[J.D.]

If someone was preaching you that He was the way and the truth and the life in the same place you were, would everyone believe not everyone believed when He was here, do you think all listened to Him there

If the Gospel were preached in Hell, how many would get saved?

Human reason would say that all of them would get saved. Have you ever been burned? They would do anything to get out of Hell, wouldn't they?

However, biblical truth says that NONE of them would get saved. They would just blaspheme God all the more. They would hate Him and accuse Him of unrighteous judgement.

This is the terrible state of man without the Holy Spirit. He will not change. He is a rebel. Even in the Fire he will not repent and believe. He has no faith. He does not seek God. He hates God.

Only the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit can give man a desire for God and the ability to repent and believe the Gospel.

The damned will not repent because they're, well, damned. The elect will repent because they're, well, elect.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Not a scholar by any means, but I'll take a crack at it.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men are not condemned, neither are all men saved. But the free gift came upon all men, just as condemnation had come upon all men.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I don't believe the people in the above verse are saved, but the verse certainly says the Lord bought them.

That He bought them is only meant as potential. They have to have faith in order to be redeemed. Faith is a gift of God. He is the author and finisher.

 

[psalms109:31]

Holy Spirit

If the Gospel were preached in Hell, how many would get saved?

Human reason would say that all of them would get saved. Have you ever been burned? They would do anything to get out of Hell, wouldn't they?

However, biblical truth says that NONE of them would get saved. They would just blaspheme God all the more. They would hate Him and accuse Him of unrighteous judgement.

This is the terrible state of man without the Holy Spirit. He will not change. He is a rebel. Even in the Fire he will not repent and believe. He has no faith. He does not seek God. He hates God.

Only the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit can give man a desire for God and the ability to repent and believe the Gospel.

The damned will not repent because they're, well, damned. The elect will repent because they're, well, elect.

It is the words of Jesus that the Holy Spirit dwells it does have the power to take us out of the depths of hell to give us the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

We can through the words of Jesus make our own decision, and I know Jesus went there for the time that He was away to preach to them to give the same hope we have.

God is all that you say He is and He is also a just God, the same hope we have the world has and God has made us the messenger of it.

The field is so ripe, so let us pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out more workers.

The ground is so full of rocks and weeds and there is a lot of work to get the ground ready.

Some times it looks hopeless, but we are to trust in Jesus and He will make a way. It is going to take a lot of work and we are the tools of God.

 

[Blammo]

That He bought them is only meant as potential. They have to have faith in order to be redeemed. Faith is a gift of God. He is the author and finisher.

Bought them means He bought them. Where does it say in the text that He potentially bought them?

 

[reformedbeliever]

It is the words of Jesus that the Holy Spirit dwells it does have the power to take us out of the depths of hell to give us the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

We can through the words of Jesus make our own decision, and I know Jesus went there for the time that He was away to preach to them to give the same hope we have.

God is all that you say He is and He is also a just God, the same hope we have the world has and God has made us the messenger of it.

The field is so ripe, so let us pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out more workers.

The ground is so full of rocks and weeds and there is a lot of work to get the ground ready.

Some times it looks hopeless, but we are to trust in Jesus and He will make a way. It is going to take a lot of work and we are the tools of God.

Surely you do not think it is man that gets the ground ready? The Holy Spirit is the one who makes the ground receptive. The ground is made ready by the enablement of the Holy Spirit ...... so that they may hear and see. Read Mark 4 the parable of the sower. Why would Jesus say that "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

 

[Brother Bob]

cleanse your hands you sinners.

Whoever you lend your member to you are the servant thereof.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom Butler wrote:
Now, this phrase: "...not imputing their trespasses unto them..."
If God is reconciling the world, interpreted as every person, and is not imputing their trespasses to them--every person--how is this not universalism? I don't believe we Baptists believe in universalism, so will some of you scholars take a crack at exegeting this passage?[QUOTE}


Blammo responded:
Not a scholar by any means, but I'll take a crack at it.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (And a couple of other passages)

Tom's reply
I don't quite understand how Romans 5:18 and the other verses explains "not imputing their trespasses" in II Cor 5:19. If "world" means everybody, then does not "not imputing their trespasses" eliminate any basis for God's judgment upon them? I'm looking for an answer to the questions, who are the world, and to whom was Paul referring when he said their trespasses would not be imputed to them.

While I'm at it, in Ro 5:18, Paul refers to the "free gift unto the justification of life." What is the free gift?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Bought them means He bought them. Where does it say in the text that He potentially bought them?

By paying the price on the cross for thier sins, if He redeemed them, then they would be saved. I don't think they were saved.